So now levels have been scrapped how will we know what progress our dc are making?

[MotleyCroup]

Ds has done really well in his KS1 end of year report. He's coped with a change of school as well as the SATs (his school didn't keep it discrete) and he's making new friends.

Question is, at the end of Y3 what then? If things stayed as they were I would know, by his next parents evening, what (if any) progress he was making. Now how will I know? What will be put in the current systems place?

Why have they scrapped the current system (when I'd just got my head around the meaning of the levels)?

I worry that a 'not in the know' parent, such as I am, will fail to spot any problems as they crop up. It's only by using sites such as this that I know a bit more about what's going on. I want the best for my DS, I want him to have a better education than I had. I want to be informed every step of the way, his strong points or where needs improvement, so I can help at home. I WANT to help him more at home. Education doesn't just stop at the school gates!

Parents are far more involved now, I can't ever remember my Mum or Dad being this interested in my education. They went to parents evening and school plays, but that was it really. They were of course happy if I did well in certain subjects or extra curricular activities but that's where it stopped. They weren't interested in changes of exams etc, I was in the final year taking O levels and CSE exams. Year after it became GCSE, so I know systems change, as they have done in my time but get a system in place first before scrapping the old one!

Surely this is going to go the way of the old exam syllabuses when schools were going with the easier ones as it made them look better.

Or we could keep the current system which allows some schools to look better than others due to them spending huge chunks of the school year practising SATs exam materials and exam techniques and skewing the figures by lowering ks1 levels so that they have extra value added at end of ks2

coming at this from the same position as some previous posters my children are currently very exceeding. so if reporting just says a variation of below, expected, exceeding then that won't tell me if they are exceeding as much as they currently are or if they are just exceeding. Say a Yr1 child works at a 1a - that is exceeding I presume if a 1b is expected. equally a yr1 child working at a level 3 would also be exceeding. HUGE difference between a 1a and a 3.

I trust my children's current teachers who are excellent but I have no idea what is to come and I have plenty of schools experience to know there are some rubbish teachers out there who don't want to stretch children as it is too much effort.

I actually don't mind sideways stretching as long as it is done properly. My kids just love learning, they are fascinated by just about everything but the danger is that the sideways stretching becomes just more of the same.

I personally haven't had any problem understanding NC levels and I can't see a problem with them myself.

I should add I don't actually agree with SATS or league tables. I just want children taught and making progress.

But I thought they were still going to have Sats in year 2 and 6.Or are these going too?

they are still going to have SATS Retropear but not with NC levels if I understand it right.

• PastSellByDate Fri 11-Jul-14 10:57:37

You have given an extremely interesting view there of why its all wrong but I wonder can you find anything positive in this? If you had to make the case for Gove, what would you say?

I struggled to understand levels, and I am from old fashioned A B and C system, HOWEVER, I want DD to aim for grammer, the only way I can know her progress along with her peers she will be up against, is national levels, is this correct?

" "I just want children taught and making progress"

Isnt there danger though of things becoming relative...and sinking down?

I worry that a 'not in the know' parent, such as I am, will fail to spot any problems as they crop up. It's only by using sites such as this that I know a bit more about what's going on

Same here Motley, but many of use this site for this purpose....usually its very helpful and we can keep each other informed

Mashabell don't all parties use education as a POl football

I want levels to stay.

At Parents' Evening this year, dd2's Y4 teacher told us she was 3b in maths, with the expectation that we'd be happy with this - but as she was a 3b at the end of year 2, we really weren't. She'd had a rough year in maths with lots of different teachers, including one who moved her from (ability-based) table to table every single week.

Without that knowledge of where she was at, in relation to 2 years previously, we wouldn't have known how bad things had got. Luckily, her class teacher was able then to liaise with her maths teacher and things have been much better ever since.

well they are sinking down year after year anyway, we are rapidly falling back in the world. I think levels are important if they are measured appropriately but SATS are different because we know that some schools just teach to the test which isn't really teaching at all so I don't feel it is an accurate way of measuring schools.

Yes, Iamaslave:

I did want DD1 to get into King Edward grammar school within easy commuting distance - she didn't missed by 6 points - but we had our doubts and moved to a better catchment for secondary so in general we're content with our senior school option (having avoided what would have been our previous option - sink school in special measures with known drug issues).

But Iamaslave: parents need two things:

reliable indicators (and I'm not fussy - but something that should in theory work across the board - I was happy with old NC Levels but think that a low 4c is miles away from a high 4a - therefore reporting NC L4 to a parent can be mistranslated as GREAT - my child has done really well - when in fact if they've only just scraped it I fear the 'cold' reality may be that they're really going to struggle in senior school - especially as they aren't doing quite so badly as to immediately merit additional support.

open/ transparent feedback - I've posted for 4 years about the utter despair I was in with DD1 at end of Y2 - she could barely read one syllable words, could only add to 20 and couldn't subtract. We'd been increasingly asking questions - saying we're confused x or y school are having their y2 take two digit numbers from 3 digit numbers. In the US at the end of first grade the expectations is you can add/ subtract to 100.

We were perpetually told - not to compare to other places/ DD1 was young for the year/ her age/ she'll develop at her own speed/ etc...

None of these things were untrue - but that wait and see attitude wasn't particularly helpful.

What is so difficult in providing parents with some advice on how to explain subtraction (and I'm talking 10 take away 1). We were utterly left to it and the school totally refused to recommend/ suggest anything (went right up to HT level). We were provided with a copy of the national curriculum (fat lot of use that was) and told they were teaching to it.

So Iamaslave - what I'd like as a parent is milestones.

By the end of Year 1 folks (and I mean all of England) - a normal child should be able to read most one syllable words they encounter, count to 100, add/ subtract numbers to 20 - possibly still using fingers/ toes.

By end of Year 2 folks (and again I mean all of England) - a normal child shoudl be able to sound out most words encountered - but may struggle with unusual pronunciations or new words. A child should be capable of reading X book by way of an example. A child should be able to count by intervals of 2/ 5/ or 10 to 100 (first steps into multiplication). A child should be able to add/ subtract numbers to 100.

It took me nearly 3 years to work out on my own that these 'milestones' weren't 'the moon' or 'unreasonable' but were in fact more or less expectations on the old national curriculum - but the school absolutely refused to prepare anything on what children should be doing by when - the were utterly resistant to explaining what will be covered. Statements to parents about what was happening in a term for maths were children will be covering numeracy unit 2a-c.

Patronising/ obfuscating just doesn't sum it up.

I get Iamaslave - that good schools (and they are out there) will devise a system for their school regarding attainment which is clearly explained to parent and will engaged in frank conversations with parents who have children struggling a bit. But Iamaslave - that's not every school and after 7 years, hand on heart - that seriously isn't St. Mediocre - God have mercy on all who enter there.

If the teachers and the school are good I think it makes no difference whether NC levels are used or not. Good schools or teachers will teach and assess the children properly and parents will be able to see good progress I think.

DS1s levels were much lower than his true ability at the end of Y2 as the teachers had just not given him the work required to achieve higher, he went up a whole NC level in the 1st term at junior school but there is no way he progressed that much, I knew he was able to work at a higher level but was told it was down to have no group to put him in and that it was the limitations of KS1, he got 100% in his L3 SATs in Y2.

If the scoring is used for over or under 100 then like others have said then the more able children could probably stay still for a length of time, potentially 2 or 3 years without there actually being a 'problem'.

It is no different than only teaching an able child to a 3c in Y2 when they are capable of a 4c for instance and of course the parents will be none the wiser as they are now.

ZanyMobster:

Quoting your post: It is no different than only teaching an able child to a 3c in Y2 when they are capable of a 4c for instance and of course the parents will be none the wiser as they are now.

this is the point - teachers are shying away from doing more for more able pupils.

I get it - they may have a substantial cohort of less able pupils who need their time and attention - but that leads to a significant portion of a class just 'treading water'/ 'marking time'

It's in their interest to suppress achievement in KS1 so that the progress measures KS1 to KS2 look good for a school.

IT IS A TOTAL WASTE OF OPPORTUNITY

IT IS SCHOOLS DETERMINING THEY'LL TEACH SO FAR AND NO FURTHER WHILST SIMULTANEOUSLY TELLING PARENTS THAT THEY ARE WORKING TIRELESSLY FOR THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE OUTCOMES FOR EACH PUPIL. (key word being 'possible' - as it's not possible to teach a gifted child to 4c end KS1 if your SMT won't allow it/ you personally don't have the resources in place to support it and don't have the time to create it yourself/ colleagues won't assist and god forbid as a school you look at that situation and consider moving the child into higher years for extension now and then).

I suspect Zany you are a teacher - and as I said earlier - PATRONISING just doesn't sum it up.

Folks we're paying for this through taxes - this is the equivalent of hiring someone to clean you disabled mother's house and finding out they just turn the hoover on for a bit and then put it back without actually moving it about a room.

By end of Year 2 folks (and again I mean all of England) - a normal child shoudl be able to sound out most words encountered - but may struggle with unusual pronunciations or new words. A child should be capable of reading X book by way of an example. A child should be able to count by intervals of 2/ 5/ or 10 to 100 (first steps into multiplication). A child should be able to add/ subtract numbers to 100

yes I agree, would be very simple clear and easy.

BTW love the word "obfuscating" I think this background attitude/thinking has come from idea that we shouldn't encourage one to think better than the other....all will do OK in the end...go into streams.

I agree a good clear indicator....would be fabulous.

I do believe however, that schools are going to have to be far more transparent - how or what or why I don't know, someone said there have been meetings about it all.

It all just seems aimless to me...I don't get what the children are aiming for.

However, I am new to the schools system with only one child in year 1. I do not believe that Gove has fiddled with schools purely to make it hell for everyone.

how would that help them win the next election? Education is a biggie.

There must be some merits to what they are doing.....

Iamslave, we're quite similar. I only have one ds too in Y2, so I'm putting all of my effort into him achieving the best he can.

Out of interest (and I'm sorry if this is an obvious question but I haven't got a clue) how do private schools currently keep a track on progress. Do they use external companies too?

PSBD, I enjoy reading your posts. I'm glad we've got you on board, feels like we have a strong ally in our midst.

Actually, everyone who has helped me (and others) understand more what the future holds (even though there's a great big fat question mark hanging over that at the moment).

Makes you feel less alone in the confusion of it all.

PSBD, I enjoy reading your posts. I'm glad we've got you on board, feels like we have a strong ally in our midst

Totally agree PSBD you are amazing your amazing posts on Maths in particular have been an enormous help to me...most of your posts are...

so helpful in fact I am sure I always thought you were a teacher

I really worry that the new levels will be variations on the 'she's doing very well' theme that I get at parents evenings. I know she's above average, what I want to know is whether she has progressed, how fast and (in the future) some idea of whether we should be looking at selective secondary schools (and how selective).

I do wonder whether this is to do with the culture of playing down academic achievement and not 'showing off' that is quite different to the very clear comparisons you get in sport eg swimming badges or in music eg grades. It seems ridiculous to be clearer about how well she can swim than about how well she can read, write and do maths!

well they are sinking down year after year anyway, we are rapidly falling back in the world fortunately regardless of what you have read in the press that isn't true www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356

Jinsei you will be informed about how your child is progressing against national expectations just as you are now

Out of interest (and I'm sorry if this is an obvious question but I haven't got a clue) how do private schools currently keep a track on progress. Do they use external companies too?

Different private schools do different things.
For prep schools the main indicator of progress is at the end of year 6 when they see how many children got into the best senior selective schools. The can't teach everything in year 6 alone so a prep school who achieves 90% plus of its students gaining places at the best selective schools can be seen to be doing well. Obviously that doesn't chart the progress of each individual child but a lot of private schools use NFER or CAT tests which provide national standardised scores so that both schools and parents can chart progress and see where each child stands against other children of the same age across the country as well as the other children in the school.

Private senior schools also use different testing methods, some internal and some from external companies. Ultimately though the best private senior schools are very interested in excellent GCSE results and will intervene if a child isn't making the expected progress.

Private schools are all about marketing and the best marketing tool is excellent results. They won't get excellent results without ensuring that children are progressing.

Of course there are some private schools that don't progress children as expected and don't get very good results but it isn't difficult as a parent to identify which schools they are.

That's exactly how levels were intended to be used when they were introduced Missunreasonable - as a measure at the end of each key stage.

Children don't make nice linear progress they have spurts and periods where they seem stuck (a bit like growth) which is why expecting children to show continual progress when they are measured too often is a problem.

Im worried abut levels going as I understand them.

it wasent until very last day year 1 found out eldest dd was behind

1b everything and target was 1 a and many of her class were 1 a or 2c.

I was fuming at 2parents evening before hand wasent told any huge issues

she passed phonics test 39/40 yet was on level 3 ort start year 2 with them fobbing me off when i knew r kids and year 1 were on that level.

phonics score wasent indicator of her ability to reading levels

we moved schools and at end of year 2 she got 2 b and 2b in sats i was very happy she was expected level at end of year 2

waiting for year 3 school report see if any levels as expect her be level 3 ifs shes 3b i be happy anything higher over the moon. parentts evening and seeing few pictures in class dont really tell me if shes behind or ahead.

shes on middle take , works hard and doing ok I think

her literacy improved, maths still struggles with and science wouldent have a clue.

Mrz- I am in total agreement with you which is why my previous post (11.27) questions the usefulness of levels. I think people are often too hung up on 2 sub levels of progress each year. My sons reading age last year was reported as being 12.9 months (he was 9), this year it was reported as being 13.4 months. I'm not annoyed because his reading age hasn't improved by at least a full year, nor do I think the school are not pushing him hard enough. I just understand that his reading development is in a bit of a lull and has slowed down a little.

3 as a bird- how will you feel if your dd makes expected progress which means she will be a 3c rather then your desired 3b?