Being a black child in a private school

[harunsmummy]

Hi, I hope this doesn't come across in any way prejudice or wrong. DH and I have recently been looking at schools and trying to choose whether to send our DS into a really good state school or a pre-prep. The main concern we had was that most of the pre-preps we visited had mainly blonde haired/blue eyed children. Our son is very confident, able and sociable but I feel that if he is in a school were he is in the minority that this may effect his self-esteem and development in some way.

I also found that a lot of these schools the children tend to "stick together". As in, all the white children were in a group and the ethnic minorities such as Asians, Chinese etc also stuck together.

So, now were are thinking whether it would just be better to send him to a really good state school (West Dulwich) where he can have a mixture of social backgrounds and be able to connect with other people that "look like him".

Does anyone have any experience of sending their child to a predominantly white school? If so, what's your thoughts?

p.s I went to a predominantly white school until I was 9 but this was not the same social class, as most of the kids came from working class backgrounds so the parents were we could say less "stuck up". I might also mention that this was in Kiev, Ukraine back in the 80's.

nicename This "who would crawl over their dead granny to get a rolex, mont blanc or holiday in the carribbean" has literally got me laughing out loud [brilliant]. You've made some valid points and just to point out we're not specifically looking for a predominantly black school because that would be insane on our part rather something with a good mix. Culturally, attitude, vibe the whole lot. I am one of those people that march to the beat of their own drum. I don't try to fit here or be accepted there. I am now older, wiser and uglier...??? No, sexier! to know that you can't please everyone. So just do you. It is important for me to find ds an environment where he can be just that!

CorusKate The schools which I stated earlier on are all in London, I can't speak for whatever is going on outside of London but again from past experiences and talking to a few friends (white with mixed children) it's not that great.

MaryTuda It's as if you are in my head!! You are so on point. I've got a friend who has three mixed children and decided to move to Cambridge and sends her children to a school where there are only 4 other non white children. Now to me, this is crazy. Why? Because it has caused all sorts of confusion and dismay in the children's minds. The older hates the fact that he is half black and tells everyone that he is white with a tan . The bit that greatly angers me here is that she reinforces this thinking. Grrrrrr!!! This is a taste of what society has to offer and when they go out in the real world it is going to hit them HARD! Within the black and white mixes there is still the "one drop rule" mentality. Sad, because I haven't really seen that with other mixes.

It will always be harder to a BME child in a largely white school because as mentioned, we live in a white lead world. The effects are greatly damaging to a BME child because if not addressed properly when young they will grow up confused, lacking self esteem with no real sense of direction or purpose. And, by no means am I saying this to be too precious or claiming the victim. I have a few white friends who have their eyes widely opened to what they could be exposing their child by sending them to a predominantly white school. A dear friend of mine (white) who also lives in Cambridge and is a single dad to a lovely mixed daughter, opted to travel a few miles each day to have her in a school where at least there are 2/3 other kids in her class that "look like her". By his own admissions, he thinks it will be madness to send her to an all white school regardless of what class it is.

Children will always find a weakness in another child and try to bully/tease/pick on but one thing any child should have to go through is being picked on because of their race. I don't want my child growing up thinking that their race is a weakness in a society which has already decided that for him. As a black person you have to constantly keep having to prove why you are good enough. Therefore, growing up with the right mentality and having self confidence in yourself especially from an early age is crucial.

The additional point which Nicename has made so well, is that it does not really matter how white your DC are, and mine are seriously pasty, some inner London private school cultures are quite corrosive. My advice is to sit in the nearest cafe after the morning school run and decide if you would feel comfortable with the loud group of mothers nearby. If talk is about summer in the Hamptons, major home refurbishments, or skiing in Vail, decide if that is you. Tight knit groups of mothers from specific backgrounds, however rainbow coloured, can have children equally unable or unwilling to mix.

At its worst, presumably because the mother is homesick, this can come with a level of hostility towards Britain and the British. DD got quite sick of ex-pat children assuming that native children were not as good or as bright, and argued that this behaviour should be considered racist. This was not helped by the fact that some children had astonishing schedules involving music lessons, sports coaching and academic coaching, then leading into SAT preparation. They were better at everything, and will presumably glide effortlessly into their very superior Ivy League colleges. DC are not unhappy they are going in a different direction.

Some schools rise above all of this. Others can appear more interested in the size of parents' wallets. The latter can create real tension.

OP did say she is in West Dulwich, so it's fair enough to take as specific interest in south London.

Op one i really think you ought to go and look at is Bishop Challoner school in shortlands, it is a nursery to 18 school that is ethnically very diverse it is a lovley and nurturing school with fantastic pastoral care. Its a catholic school but please dont discount because of this. We left there due to a far county move and reallymiss it! There are several parents i know who commute to school from herne hilland other places quite a distance. And for an indie their fees are low.

OP also said she had looked at Eaton House Schools, Eaton Square School and Newton Prep, which tend to have quite Central London and often very affluent catchments.

The Eatons are more the uber wealthy expats whereas Newton is more of a 'normal' sarf London crowd.

And perhaps worth adding that it is not just Americans. Many ex-Pats are from elite backgrounds/universities, whatever country they come from, and have seriously high powered jobs here. Some then appear to assume that because they are presumably brighter and more successful, their children have to be brighter and more successful.

Equally some cultures, whether European, South American or whatever, can be just as snobbish as the British, if not more. And money clearly counts to many.

London has a great choice in private schools. The diversity within these will be astonishing, which on the whole is a good thing. However OP should look at the effective catchment. It is wearing to be surrounded by people who think they are innately superior. I would not know but assume that this experience could be worse if we were not white.

Again agree with nicename. Parents at Newton are likely to be less judgemental and more accepting. The same should be true of other sarf London preps.

Of course - you can only go by what you see! I have always found Italian and Spanish lovely, French a bit cliquey, etc. The embassy kids were rather nice.

The more central you are, the more likely it is that you will have the very, very rich international families, or those working for companies with deep pockets that are bankrolling them to live in London for a few years (hence a high turnover). You will also find that there is no one around over the holidays, which is a pain if you are a London-based family.

This thread makes me feel really sad. My DCs go to two very mixed indies (as I perceive it) and have friends of every skin colour and faith. My antennae just weren't set to count how many of each- now they are and it bothers me.
I helped at an Open Day last week for perspective pupils and their parents and I actually took notice of how many BME families I met when I never would have before. Happily, it was about 20% (30% Asian, 50% no idea).

Many years ago, a family did ask how many black girls there were at the school because they didn't see enough of them and were planning to send their DD to a much less academic school as a result.I asked how they formed their judgement on a weekend tour of the facilities when most of the girls weren't there and they replied that it was the school prospectus at the other school. I later looked at it online and it was the same girl in all the photos! I wonder if our school changed its prospective parents visits so that parents can see the actual mix on a working day as well as a better feel for how the school runs. At the time, I thought these parents were being ridiculous and ruling out a great school because of a misperception.

As a member of a minority group myself, I wouldn't be at all comfortable sending my child to a school where they would be the only one or one of a scant handful. DH had some very unpleasant experiences at his South London, very white, very Christian school.But my experience of interacting with the parents in my girls' years (mums nights out, playdate pick ups etc and my very mixed social circle outside school) reinforces my conclusion that everyone has the same concerns and interests at heart whatever their background. I guess I -and my DCs- have the luxury of not noticing because the schools are so mixed. I have never, ever heard of any kind of racist bullying at any of them- ever! We also don't have too many uber-wealthy either. Most parents are just very hard working (lots of DCs on scholarships and bursaries) and many live in unglamorous areas. Not too many spoilt brats as a result.

I think that the answer to the OP's dilemma may lie in moving to North London.

I've heard horror stories about some much sought after 'very Christian' schools (MC white kids getting beaten/bullied by kids from certain estates along skin colour lines - racism cuts all ways, and the wannabe gang culture is pretty ugly).

One american mum at nursery was telling us about a recent netball game her older (junior school) mixed race child had with another school 'mummy, the other girls said that they were going to 'f*k us up' and kept scratching and barging us'. That was a 'nice' faith school too!

What to do? Get a list of schools, visit with open eyes (look beyond results, new carpets, antique furniture in the Heads office etc), speak to the students if you can, and google the school and its affiliates/headteacher/board of governos/owners etc like mad. You will find things that aren't in the prospectus! The Head and teachers are a very important indicator - if they come across as snobby, condescending, bum-kissing to the prada/2XU/rolex moms, genbrally rude and sacrastic, then consider very carefully.

Get on boards like this and ask for experiences. Speak to your current headteacher and ask for their knowledge.

Your homework won't always be 100%, and there will always be someone who tells yo after you've had fingers burned 'I've heard horror stories about that school/Headmistress...'.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but can I add a slightly different perspective. DS1 and DS2 aged 11 and 7 mix happily with everyone but they are not colour blind. They don't like being the only black boys in the class and really like to have others around them who look like them even though their best friends tend to be white. As they have got older they have got better at articulating the issues for them. It seems to be most about wanting to blend in. Of course it helps if they other kids are nice, inclusive etc as children tend to be nowadays but it is hard to overcome the wanting to blend in unless you can find a class or a school with a real mix.

Marytuda

I enjoyed reading your post which was well put together and one I totally ‘get’ and an attitude which is common to where I live. I have heard on plenty of occasions ‘oh there are too many ESL there’ code for there are too many ‘brown faces’ or Hijabs etc.

I do digress from when you say ‘most middle class are white’ I know you did not say specifically but in London there are big numbers of BME middle class too. I am married to a (white) middle class woman and I am a (black) professional man with a 3 year old son. My own British school background was solidly working class, although my paternal line was of the elite Caribbean academic ruling classes (My Fathers cohorts become post independence Judges Prime Ministers etc)
Like many (black) men like me who grew up in London I am able to ‘switch’ roles, I can be very ‘urban street’ and I can be super professionally well spoken. What do I mean by ‘super professional’? many of my wife and my professional relationships are with minor aristos, super hedges and other public school type. At playgroups, Church and other places I do tend to gravitate to the more ‘middle class’ types. Why? Am I selling out my own ‘working class types’? admittedly I am now more drawn to people whose current lives are similar to my own and reflect the type of continuing aspirations I wish to continue. I wanted my DS to go to a more middle class school as I wanted him to be amongst the ‘movers and shakers’. I did not feel I had to be all PC about my choice as I went to a crap school, when many of my school friends ended up in jail. The schools I have chosen for my DS tend to have plenty of highly ambitious black African, some Caribbean and mixed families, my kind of people. Yes there is a higher proportion of white middle classes at my DS school than is normal locally but I make no bones about it. I did have a choice of sending my DS private, but I felt that the state (Church) school he is in is well suited.

Thanks for that Osmium, I've felt a bit of an imposter on this thread seeing as how OP is actually looking for BME private-school parents and I'm the polar opposite - a WMC state-school parent. In practice, most responders (is that the word?) have been white private-school parents plugging their own/favourite establishments, which is not really what she wants either, but probably says something about the average mumsnetter. Reading the posts has taught me things I didn't know about private-school ambience . . . the significance of a school's Uber-wealthy intake (not many of those at our school!) and how places like Newton Prep (sorry, but all my neighbours who are "too good" for our school go there) are considered modest, unpretentious and bohemian (because they have 17% BME (wow!) among other things). It proves to me what I already suspected, that the private/state divide exacerbates existing prejudice and ends up cultivating completely separate assumptions of normality. Especially here in inner London.
But that's really a subject for another thread.

My son and his best pal would be classed as BME but you wouldn't think by looking at them. I know a lot of kids like this. I'm not sure where the (private) school lists are published but we certainly didn't look for this when we chose his school.

If you are looking purely to send a child to a predominantply black school (so afro carribean origin, rather than asian) then I'm not sure you will find a private one.

We didn't go private because 'we are better than you' but because of where we are the state schools are split into 2 types 'outstanding' but impossible to get into, or not very good (and this is confirmed by teachers in the family).

So what to do with our only child? Send him to a local state school, where I know that it is likely he will get bullied for being 'white'(as a friends kid does, and a much younger pal of mine was) or pay through the nose for him to go somewhere where, he will mix with a mix of kids - so noone really stands out as 'the foreigner'.

I know Dulwich very well.

I have mixed children, all look remarkably different, one can pass as pure white is a clone of me, the other is black skinned, and the third has very fair and olive skinned like Spanish / Mediterraneans.
When considering their schooling specifically for the first I chose a private school that ethnically diverse, I would not go for my child being the only in any type of school state or private. How would your DC feel, if have always been around people and been the only child of colour and they dont mind, then go for it, but for me I did not think it would be much fun to spend the next 7 years of your life in a school where you are the only one, not nice.

There may not be issues with racism that continue if they arise as the private school would not want to lose you, but you then dont want your child to be the token black kid wheeled out for open days, only used in the brochure if the picture is of the sports day or some other non academic demonstration.

Good friend of mine is Kenyan Indian and her child is the only Indian in the school, it is private. Gave permission for picture to be used in brochure, and website etc, but was not happy that the picture was used on the page that was talking about assistance with fees.
We laugh about it now, but at the time my friend was fuming; the school said the images were given to the design company who used each on the pages they saw fit, is that not inherent racism?
Oh Asian kid is at the school, it must be all the family clubbing together to pay the fees, parents scraping every penny or given a bursary to help with fees.

Anyway my friend was not happy, as they paid full fees they got the whole shed load of prospectuses binned :) .
In that area many of the preps are diverse, some more than others, Oakfield Prep, DCPS, Rosemead, the Villa, St Dunstans College my old school, you are lucky from that neck of the woods both state and private a white kid, black kid, mixed kid, Asian kid will not stand out, unless they have 2 heads.

After careful and long consideration (almost 18 months) we have finally decided to enlist our ds in a state school. The main reason for this was because we did not feel that a private primary school would be of any academic advantage to our ds. I have looked and spoken to a few friends in the education sector and when I compare the KS1 and KS2 results of a number of these private schools with a good state school, the state school outperform them. One school which really caught me by surprise was Grinling Gibbons in Deptford. Perhaps for those that fit the typical WMC sterotype or BME parents who want their child to rub shoulders with the "movers and shakers" as stated by OSMIUM , then this might be a nose turner for them as it has a high percentage of pupils receiving free schools meals and most children do not have English as a first language However, the teachers are AMAZING, the results speak for themselves and it has a wonderful feel about it.

I went on to have a more open mind about state primary schools and for me it is the better option. Perhaps at 7+ or secondary level we will look towards the private route but what justification is there of putting your in a private school if they can get better in a state school. What also sells it for me is ultimately the cultural diversity. Another thing I found from my analysis and talking to white parents/friends is that they would prefer to send their child to a school where BME are less visible even if it means that the school does not perform all that well compared to those where BME's are more visible. Examples of these are; Wix, Honeywell, Belleville, Henry Cavendish, Ravenstone, Reay, Ashmole and even Paxton and Kingswood. Compared with Henry Fawcett, Vauxhall Primary, High View and Grinling Gibbons (outstanding results).

Of course, one could argue that state schools do not have the funding to put in place an array of school clubs and sports etc, but if you have the money to put your child in a private school why not compliment their state schooling with private funded activities outside of school? DH who was very keen on the idea of private education before I showed him my "findings", agrees that where is the justification in sending your child to a private primary when there is an abundant choice of excellent state schools. I feel one of the main reasons why people choose to send their kids to a private school is not so that they have a "good start to life", because I feel that's proverbial nonsense but rather they want their kids to "mix" with others who they feel are in the same socio-economic class as themselves. When visiting these states schools rather than thinking to myself "ah we are wealthier than 65-80% of these parents", I was thinking my ds would really enjoy being here and I can really see him making good lasting friends in this school and so forth.

What I am trying to conclude from my findings is that private schools are a waste of time, unless you are unfortunate enough to live somewhere where the state school is not an option due to their under-performing results or you are unsettled at the thought of your dc mixing with the likes of peasant BME children. Another point I would like to add is that a number of the high performing private schools are due to the fact that a lot of these parents would also enlist the help of outside tutors, therefore how much of the success is actually being attributed from the school itself?? I am more excited by seeing children from deprived backgrounds and areas getting outstanding results in a state school which doesn't have the same facilities available to it as a prep school. Could you imagine if they did? It proves to me just how much value the teachers are adding. Grinling Gibbons have 83% of their year 6 pupils attaining level 5 in English and Maths. I spoke to a BME parent who's son is 8 years old and already started doing calculus. For us, state schools have a wonderful mixture everything we could look for to give our son a good start in life.

OsmiumPhazer Slightly off topic but drawing back on a few points you made which to me somewhat demonstrates the problem with some black people today.

1. Why do you feel that you need to "switch roles"? Can you not just be yourself and how you are rather than put on a "role" when with a certain group of people? I can slightly relate to do this but more when I was in my late teens and early 20s. As time went I thought there is no need to "switch roles". The way in which I conduct myself at work, running a successful division is more or less the same as you would catch me chilling in a park or a bar with my hood friends and equally my very uber wealthy/successful executive friends/.....associates. With time I have come to the realisation that people respect you much more when they know that you are confident, in control and mostly comfortable in your own skin. My dad who is a Cambridge graduate I have never once seen him have the need to "switch roles", perhaps that where this self confidence stems from. However, I just wondered whether you cared to elaborate on that further.

2. You describe your dw as middle class and yourself as professional, do you not feel that these are the same thing? If so, then why would you find yourself gravitating more towards the "middle-class" when in certain social situations?

I don't know about others, but I find the statement

"What I am trying to conclude from my findings is that private schools are a waste of time, unless you are unfortunate enough to live somewhere where the state school is not an option due to their under-performing results or you are unsettled at the thought of your dc mixing with the likes of peasant BME children."

unpleasant. OP had mentioned 3 Central London prep schools. What I and others were trying to alert her to was that the greater issue in at least a couple of schools mentioned might be the significant number of international super-rich, some of whom may be quite achievement orientated, which can feed through to quite a hot house atmosphere. I know of a local state school which used to be avoided because the majority playground language was not English. In short each school, state or private, tends to have a slightly different catchment/appeal. Up to you to decide where your child might fit best. In my experience few parents base such decisions on the skin colour of other pupils, but on how they feel their own child will thrive. (And I too would want to avoid schools with those parents.)

FWIW we chose private 15 years ago because at that point North Lambeth schools were very poor and our local school was threatened with closure. Plus the local Private offered wrap-around care and the then Head said his belief was that "Happy children learn". You may have a different perspective but we just wanted our children to enjoy their education and to thrive. In no way were we seeking some form of educational apartheid.

Our children are growing up in a different, multi-ethnic, world. Both DC have been at their respective secondaries for five years during which time they have talked regularly about their classmates. To be honest I had assumed that the lovely, hard working and very popular girl would be a pretty blond, whilst the very academic, superb classical musician would be thin tall, white and slightly arrogant looking. Both turned out to be mixed race. My stereotypes. As far as my children were concerned, race had never been worth mentioning.

marytuda could you supply source for BME figures in (named) schools such as you quoted? I am interested in seeing them.

As I posted before I could only find EAL (which in turn I cannot find for OFSTED inspected schools) and another poster pointed out how that is an unpredictable (but potentially large) underestimate of BME.

Hi I am black British and my children are 100% of black British. Although I now live in the depth of Surrey, being from south London originally, I know the private schools well. My eldest child has only been educated in the private system, and has either been to the schools mentioned or we have had friends who attended. For a Afro/Caribbean (or any) boy, the Dulwich boys schools are good, primary schools in the dulwich-ish areas tend to be fine and with few racial divides. Racial divides do start in secondary school, generally due to differences in world views/experiences, and of course there can sometimes be racial comments, but nothing major. From my experience Rosemead, as a coed had a good racial mix and wonderful kids /parents (regardless of race), but that was a while ago, so I can't vouch for now! My advice would be, understand your child's personality/resilience, trust your instincts, go with the school that gets good results AND has good pastoral care, and build a network of friends/family outside of school so that your son can develop relationships and coping mechanisms to handle any racial issues as they arise, which they inevitably do, as people will always pick on the 'other' be it race, choice of music or hair style :) Good luck!

You are 6 years too late in responding to OP.