Being a black child in a private school

[harunsmummy]

Hi, I hope this doesn't come across in any way prejudice or wrong. DH and I have recently been looking at schools and trying to choose whether to send our DS into a really good state school or a pre-prep. The main concern we had was that most of the pre-preps we visited had mainly blonde haired/blue eyed children. Our son is very confident, able and sociable but I feel that if he is in a school were he is in the minority that this may effect his self-esteem and development in some way.

I also found that a lot of these schools the children tend to "stick together". As in, all the white children were in a group and the ethnic minorities such as Asians, Chinese etc also stuck together.

So, now were are thinking whether it would just be better to send him to a really good state school (West Dulwich) where he can have a mixture of social backgrounds and be able to connect with other people that "look like him".

Does anyone have any experience of sending their child to a predominantly white school? If so, what's your thoughts?

p.s I went to a predominantly white school until I was 9 but this was not the same social class, as most of the kids came from working class backgrounds so the parents were we could say less "stuck up". I might also mention that this was in Kiev, Ukraine back in the 80's.

Ds1's school is 97% 'non white' and the majority of pupils are Indian/Sri lankan heritage. Ds is one of three white children in his class of 30.

It has caused no issues whatsoever, no divided groups based on ethnicity etc

We went to look at a school in Bolton when our dc were little, we had just moved here and are white British.
The school was 100% Asian, my dc would have been the minority, which they were open minded about.
Until a group of them made sure my dc were not welcome, saying racist nasty insults about white British.
Needless to say, we moved to another area where the dc were accepted for who they were.

I feel sorry when kids are in a minority and brought up in a 'hiddle' and to feel negatively against the 'home' nationality/race - whatever it is. Its the crap that their parents feed them.

How can they feel part of society? What do they do when they go to uni/work and find that they are the minority?

At DD's independent secondary school it is very much mixed. There is no segregation among the pupils in DD's class at least. Obviously I don't know the other classes but it would not appear so.

The last thing I'd like is for us to pay huge amounts of money and not have our dc be completely happy where he is.

I'll probably try to arrange for another show around.

TravellingToad yes they are blonde haired/blue eyed. Of course that's not a stereotype. Just like not all black people have broad noses and nappy hair :)

My ds class looks predominantly white; Slovak, Polish, British, South African, Canadian, American, Australian, Norwegian, French, Dutch, Azerbaijani, Iranian, Venezuelan, Irish and Iraqi but there is also Chinese, Nigerian and Indian. It is a class of 20 children!

Two really good issues here: 1) the general question of diversity in schools and 2) how does that, on personal-experience level, affect the individual child?
Regarding the first, it seems to me on reading this that those (white people) used to private-school environments (and I don’t mean International schools, though of course they are private too) consider 20% BME to be super-diverse. That says something about their own social exclusion in a residential area which is at least 50% BME, if not more. Perhaps they should take a look at their local state school. They should also take an open-eyed stroll down their local high street.
But of course, many of them already have - and been horrified; not at state school standards, which are on the whole pretty good, but “my dear, the quality of the intake!” By which they mean, though only the most honest will say, ethnicity.
20%, 25%, even 30% BME in their blonde little angel’s class: “absolutely fine!”. But above 50%? Or good heavens, 80%, 90% 95% BME (all of which are standard in the state schools in this area)? “Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!”
Where are all the white kids? we state-primary parents round here often say, or think. But of course we know where they are: at Newton Prep, Eaton House and all the other above-mentioned preps. Which, logically speaking, probably reflect more-or-less the reverse of our schools in diversity terms. We think of 90 % BME as normal, indeed, as super-diverse. Clearly the Newton Prep brigade think the same about their precious 10% (or was it 20%?).
And it is disingenuous to say, but it’s about class/wealth, not race! There is, as the OP points out, a correspondence between the two. Most rich or even middle-class kids are white. Hers are obviously an exception, and therein lies her dilemma. And most of the poorest are brown, certainly around here.
2) I don’t see how it could fail to affect a child, being the only different-looking one in the class. Which doesn’t mean that child couldn’t end up being being super-popular. It would depend on their other social gifts, and how well they could “market” their difference. My son asked me about the difference between his and my skin colour almost as soon as he could talk. I would never have gone for prep-school, but I could have moved to a more uniformly (white) middle-class school and area, which might have been attractive to me, as a white-middle-class mum. Wanting a school environment that would completely normalise his own appearance and ethnic background, at least during his tenderest years, was a big part of the decision not to.
Within our state primary I have noticed some of the ethnic grouping the OP remarks upon. The white-middle-class parents in our own class – all four of them – have tendency to group together too obviously at drop off and pick up; and their kids’ friendships tend to reflect this. Though quite fluent in their language, I tend not to join them, out of some kind of vague loyalty to my own brown kid, who actually likes everybody but ends up happily enough in the company of other mixed raced kids. Again, I think it’s disingenuous of parents to declare, “Kids just don’t notice!” about ethnic difference. They notice it, along with everything else. What they make of it will depend on what their parents do.

Is there a website where BME of schools can conveniently be compared? And compared to their neightbourhood? (Though I suppose that doesn't work terribly well for private schools as they do not have distance as an entrance criteria). I tried to find BME stats for Wandsworth, but other than a statement that it was the lowest of all inner London borough, I drew a blank.

ISI reports include information on EAL pupils (which could be a proxy) but not BME. Is there any typical relationship between proportion EAL and proportion BME or is it too variable to be worth looking at in that way?

If my maths is right, from the most recent inspection reports I could find, Newton Prep has 17% EAL, Eaton House the Manor under 1%.

I'm in Bristol, where I think the population is roughly 15% BME; at my daughter's private school, the BME ratio is actually higher than that - at least 20%, more in some years - though the make-up of that is probably different from the city as a whole (e.g. very few black British of Caribbean origin, more black of African origin).

white people. . . should also take an open-eyed stroll down their local high street.

If I did this I'd hardly see any non-white people at all. At my daughter's private school I see far more Indian and African girls.

Proportionate to the total population of the UK 20% non-white would seem rather more than I'd expect.

So, what counts as "white"??

Is it colour or race we are talking about?

In DSs old school, if you looked you would think 'ah yes, all little whitey english types'. My son and his British/Turkish pal were the closest to 'English types' you got there. The vast majority of kids spoke english as a second language (so not bilingual).

Where he is now, yes there are children with black skin, but also many many other nationalities as first generation, mixed background or from waaay back. It may look all 'white', and if you saw/heard DS you would think that he was 100% anglo saxon middle class kid, and you'd be wrong.

I think because it is so mixed, and the parents are pretty much committed Londoners (whatever their origins) it makes for somewhere pretty relaxed.

I love hearing kids yabbering in english, then turning to mum and speaking russian, chinese, german, italian, french... Its great! That's what working in London for me has been in my career - a big bunch of foreigners from all over the place.

EAL is a red herring - not all children are counted here, especially those truly bilingual children (of whom my son knows quite a few now).

DS has only had 'you aren't alowed here' from some snotty little kids in the 'burbs, who were, incidentally way off the mark of his origins (German!? German?! Where did that come from?). He suggested they speak to his mum to ascertain whether he was 'british enough' to play in the park. I scowled at his parents and addressed my DS in loud, broad Glaswegian ("aye, son, you were born in the Chelsee an' Westminster hoaspitul, what's the problem there, son?") until their neanderthal parents shooed their precious darlings away, in case the nasty scottish lady ate them or something. Arseholes everywhere, I'm afraid!

At DSs last school, I'd say that well over 80% of children has english as a second (or third+) language and would be counted as EAL. If you saw them, you would think that the majority were 'white MC english' kids.

My incredibly diverse school class I mentioned above (18 different nationalities in a class of 20) is a state school not an international or private school. If I walked down our high street I would probably see about 10% or less BME - not everywhere is the same as London. BUT as I mentioned before the 'white' part of the population is very diverse.

I also think marytuda is wrong to suggest this issue is a white middle class one. I think everyone likes to associate with people they can relate to, who have similar backgrounds, parenting styles, issues and outlooks on life and home language. This is not to do with race as happens just as much in a white only school though the diversity between the groups is less obvious. Just as she decided where to live so her ds would 'fit in' so do lots of other parents across the racial spectrum. It is not just chance the has resulted areas having different racial profiles nor is it just white people moving out; others are choosing to move in to be close to family or cultural links. Children in a school will have much more in common with each other culturally than their parents so will mix better but of course home life does impact on them.

Marytuda You are such a breath of fresh air I appreciate all non BME's like yourself contributing but I did want to hear more from parents that are in the SAME sort of position as myself that being with an BME child in a predominantly white school :)

Whether a child is black, white, mixed or anything else it can be damaging and have an affect on a child to be the only "different-looking one" in the class. I recall when we first moved to Russia and the private school I was in, I'd be called all sorts of things. Of course, as a child you don't have a grasp on what is racism but as I grew older I began to see things differently and for what they really are. Unfortunately, as black people we are marginalised and most people already have preconceived notions about us. I graduate from a very good university and because I didn't try to fit in or be an "Uncle Tom", I felt that I was being dumbed down and somewhat made to feel as though I shouldn't be there. I wanted to embrace my culture and skin colour but instead for a few years I started to resent that. As, I've grown older I love my culture, my ethnicity and I embrace it like no other, because there's no issues with me but its an issue with society. I wish that my parents would have started off with putting me in an environment where I could've been surrounded more by other children like myself because although they tried to instil my roots and culture but it was somewhat futile as I went out to face the real world.

We are living in a society today that unfortunately portrays young black boys in a very negative light. When they want to express themselves they are labelled as being antagonists, criminals, gang members all sorts of pejorative things which in a way are there in order to keep them down and keep them doubting themselves and their abilities. If you keep telling someone long enough they have no future and this is where their life is heading, then sooner or later that will start to sink in causing adverse effects. I remember when I started working for a certain company in the city and as a young person with no responsibility I did the most irresponsible thing by going out and buying myself a very nice, very expensive car. WHAT A MISTAKE! I don't recall a single week where I was not stopped by the police and this is by no way an exaggeration, there was once day where me and my bf at the time were stopped a grand total of THREE times in ONE day. What was our crime? That was the question I kept posing the officers and I knew there was no crime here. The car was fully insured, fully paid for in my name everything was completely on board and each time they stopped me they gave different excuses which made absolutely no sense. They had no grounds for stopping me but perhaps they felt the need to in order to remind me of my race. One officer after having stopped me looked at me and said "what do you do in order to be able to afford this?" At which point I completely lost it. I was not under arrest nor did they have any reasonable grounds to suspect anything illegal but they still felt the need to ask me such question. I said to the officer "would you ask me the same question if I was white?" he paused and looked at me, so I continued "Well, I sell drugs! 6 days a week in that building over there" I pointed towards Canary Wharf. "If you like you can escort me to my office where I would be more than happy to show you a portfolio of my clients who I sell drugs to 6 days a week and also whilst were there I could show you the figures I made so far this month but I wouldn't want to make you feel stupid"....something to that effect. It went on for 10-15 minutes. Coming back on topic, I don't want my child to start dealing with something which he potential has his whole life to look forward to :) Being in an environment where he can flourish and be around others to relate to is absolutely invaluable. Don't get me wrong, I don't want him growing up and always trying to be "black" because he is mixed but instead to be aware of the society we live in so that it is not such a SHOCK when he grows up.

It is a bit of both I think. Race, class and mentality. Generally, I don't like to classify but I suppose we would be classed as middle-class. Although, I don't think or even want to fall into that stereotype of middle-class but we do both dh and I have good jobs, good income, nanny :( etc and here is where the mentality bit comes in...because we don't like to be classed as that we don't act it. When I come back home and put on my "normal" clothes, I'm just me. We have street cleaner/garbage men friends, we have very high end friends and everything in between you can think of. I speak to them all the same, I treat none of them differently and it's the same with SOME of them towards me. At home ds is growing up mixing with children of all different class and backgrounds. As nice as material things are they're just combined specks nothing. Again, it's like when I used to take him to classes and there were wmc mothers there that would huddle together and to a degree quite laughable actually, I would chuckle to myself because they haven't a clue. It's sad really.

What is your ideal school/ratio then? Our local state schools are predominantly arab/north african - that's the way it is, as that's how the area has developed over the past 30 years or so (from very english middle and working class).

I want my child to go to school not where there are 'people like him' (not that I'm sure what that is - mixed race, half-second generation, could pass for many nationalities with an odd surname that noone can quite pinpoint), but where people don't give a monkeys, and we have done that after much searching and advice.

Our worst experience was a school of upper class/wannabees who were mainly very wealthy foreign, and desperate to give their kids an 'english education'. Never were so many plums jammed into so many little mouths. Parents (not all but enough of them to make a difference) and staff were snobs and just awful. Noses were well and truly rubbed in their wealth (shame they were missing 'class'!). Since DH and I are 'nouveau poor' arty types it didn't impress us all that much but still...

A friend went to one of the local sate schools and was beaten up reguarly by the various cliques of kids which formed along race lines - she was 'too white' aparently.

Well, from experience, the only black child at a school is one hundred percent guaranteed to be photographed for the prospectus ;)

nicename It's not really as simplistic as being able to break it down to actual figures, because as I said it's not really about race rather about class. More so, about mentality.

I came across a very interesting article which is a bit of a relief to know that there are other black parents out there who are in more or less the EXACT same predicament as myself. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/05/black-middle-class-prejudice

ThirteenHorses Haha and I am sure being the little poser that he is, he'd be more than pleased ;)

Agree thirteenhorses

At my grammar school back in the early 80's, there was one black child in the whole school.

There was no racism or bullying as far as I know and she was extremely popular.

One thing I do remember vividly was going to school matches at some schools with a very high percentage of BME kids and the reaction of the girl to having some other children who looked like her to talk to (even the wolfwhistles of some of the black boys went down very well).

My daughter, white Anglo-Saxon type, is very much a minority in her school which is around 65% black African/black Caribbean, around 15% Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Middle Eastern and the remaining 20% white of various different nationalities. I think there are only 2 other White British in her class.

I would be very wary of sending my child to a school where they would be the only white child in the school, or the only one in their year. I would also be anxious about a school where the vast majority of children came from one ethnic background/culture.

I have one friend whose daughter was in a class where all the other girls were from one particular ethnic group - they tended to speak to each other in their own language at break times, it was very hard for my friend to get to know the other mothers and play-dates/birthday parties/sleep-overs etc were pretty much out of the question. In the end, they moved their DD to a more diverse school where she was much happier.

20% BME sounds fine to me, as long as that 20% are not all from one particular cultural group.

Could you ask the schools to put you in touch with the parents of black pupils in the school so you can get the low-down from them?

Just to expand on above longer post - I assumed we all knew we were talking about inner south London here, which must have a BME ratio much, much higher than the national average, probably 50% or more. It was obvious to me from the prep schools mentioned, all located within a couple of miles of each other . . . But I totally take the point that they don't have tiny catchment areas the way that all the decent state primaries do . . That's the point really. For better or worse, they are not local schools - they are elite schools.
I also think it's a bit high handed of WMC people to tell a BME person what percentage BME would be sufficient for her purposes. My now decade-long close association with a BME partner and child have shown me, though properly anti-racist as I always was, how little I really knew, and still know, about what it really means to be BME in a white-dominated world, though for my child's sake I'm trying. I have stories too exactly like the OP's car story, also random arrests, one taking place right outside our home. I had to go out there and insist that my child's father really did live in our rather nice (otherwise whites' only) garden-square terrace, really did own that (second hand) Mercedes (watch me park it for him, guys), and was not just loitering here with obviously criminal intent, before the police would let him go. I could list more, but I won't.
And the point, for me, about % BME and primary school was, why need my son think of himself as in a minority at all? Couldn't I put off, at least, perhaps, until secondary school, the inevitable moment when he realises that the world is basically run and owned by people of a different colour? At least for these few years, couldn't he be allowed to think of himself as totally normal, not other, not minority, just one amongst equals? He has probably already noticed that most people on TV, in books and indeed most teachers and other authority symbols (including me!) are white.
Which is why, challenging though it must be, I don't think it's quite the same for the lone white child in a BME class, here in the UK or anywhere in the world.

nicename It's not really as simplistic as being able to break it down to actual figures, because as I said it's not really about race rather about class. More so, about mentality. sorry for lazy cut n paste - but am on school run.

That's what I was trying to say - some people were seeming to say that it was about skin colour and percentages, and the fact that they weren't keen on their child being 'the only x in the school/class'. And I do accept that if my child was going to walk into a class of anglo saxon Janet and Johns, in posession of a 'funny name', curly hair and dark skin, I'd swallow hard and worry about bullying/stupid comments/reactions.

Id really have to scour local schools to find someone 'like me' at the school gates. If I did, it doesnt mean that I'd have anything in common with them.

My view is that a mix is great - our society is mixed, well where I live it is very mixed across racial and wealth lines - but that sending a child to a certain school on the basis of 'how many kids are black, asian, EAL won't really work out. If the culture feels wrong, then don't go! Run for the hills in fact.

We have been at a school where there was a awful culture of snobbishness and one-upmanship. The loveliest people at this particular school - the most unassuming and not-up-their-own-bums were the Indian families, the worst, the Americans on massive relocation packages. That kind of attitude colours the culture of the school, and the behaviour of the kids - kids will bully if there is a level of unhapiness/mad competetiveness, and I guess skin colour is the most obvious thing to pick on (alongside wearing glasses, having a lazy eye, not having the right car or holiday).

A friend took her son to spend a day at a awfully nice prep. I knew it from way back as quite nice, good mix of cultures (an internaional school) and backgrounds. She said that her son was bullied on his trial day there. He said that the kids were trying so hard to show off and put him down, call him names, take the mickey out of his name, etc.

Having worked with allsorts, I find that the most arrogant, bullying and back-stabby adults (so I assume they pass it onto their kids) aren't the 'proper toffs' or 'ordinary' people, but those aspiring to the extent of insanity, one-upping, desperate to show they are 'better' than you, 'see what I have' flash harries, who would crawl over their dead granny to get a rolex, mont blanc or holiday in the carribbean.