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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Aarrgghh. Third time DS has come out of school in shitty pants!

177 replies

Kyrptonite · 24/09/2013 16:21

Please tell me if I'm over reacting as I had a baby 2 weeks ago and my brain hasn't fully returned to full capacity.

I've posted before about DS (4) and his toileting issues. He had been doing so much better lately and then today for the third time since starting school came out covered in shit. I could smell him as soon as I picked him up. When I asked him why he hadn't asked someone to help him (teacher and 2 TAs in class) he said something about missing playtime or losing golden time if he's naughty.

I'm not brave enough for AIBU but WIBU to compose an email to school asking what they are doing to support him and why no one noticed? He bloody stank and had obviously been like it a while.

I had a meeting before he started where I explained he has a problem. I let the teacher know last week he was on medication and may have an accident.

I don't want him to be bullied. He's waiting for a paediatrician referral for suspected encopresis. He's managed the toilet 4 times last week and I really thought we were getting somewhere.

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

tethersend · 30/09/2013 11:13

Fair enough.

There is certainly a lot of conflicting information about, but you are correct in that The Equality Act is the One To Follow

spiderlight · 30/09/2013 11:44

Oh, poor little lad :( I hope you manage to sort this out.

ancientelm · 30/09/2013 12:31

It does seem that 'working to rule' and teacher's contracts stating they should not be expected to change children often ends up treating 'accidents' as SN and having to employ extra support staff, when this is an issue for quite a large proportion of children (so not that special), as in it is not uncommon.

From the other similar thread on this board I read this:

I'm a Reception teacher and often have children who wet/ soil themselves when they first start school. It's not mine or my TA's favourite job but we ALWAYS clean the children up (have a male TA, so I help the girls, as you can never be too careful with parents - no offence!) And never make a big deal out of it, we certainly don't talk about the child in front of them

In fact the children affected will not be actually that far behind the 'developmental norm' as per what we are told currently, training at around 3 years. Any illness would compromise what existing ability a child possessed. If in fact a short 'illness' (distorted bowel) is the cause, employing short term extra staff may also be problematic.

Treating every case as a SN distorts the very nature of what SN actually is.

I think there are a lot of issues like this in primary, applying sun cream, concentrating or sitting still for extended periods of time, dressing, to name but a few. All these Union regulations mean that some staff feel paralysed to act, as they should not be expected to act or they might question whether they are 'allowed to. However these tasks fall very much within the Duty of Care of a school, since they are in loco parentis. Failing to carry them out is in breach of this and can mean that the most vulnerable lose out.

ancientelm · 30/09/2013 12:35

^ that should read 'short term illness.' I know there is not an overnight fix for this condition.

mrz · 01/10/2013 16:57

by working to rule do you mean teaching the other 29 children in the class ancientelm?

Teachers can do lots of things but not unfortunately be in two places at once.

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 17:27

I would not expect you to be mrz but flexibility does help, gives a person more freedom to act as needed. If you are free you do what is needed, simple as that. You prioritize your time in accordance with you skills level of course. Would you feel the same about first aid?

The teacher I quoted and other like her obviously work like this and find it
works for them. This model works well also in other lines of work too.

mrz · 01/10/2013 18:07

I was going to say I'm happy to change soiled pants if needed but perhaps happy isn't the correct word. Over my career as a reception teacher I have changed hundreds of children as the need arose. I've had serial soilers who needed to be changed at least five times a day - every day and I've had smearers who managed to cover themselves from the neck downwards (how do you get poo between your toes while wearing your shoes?) and the toilet cubicle walls, door, toilet floor and have never shirked my duty to the child but it has meant that for albeit short periods I've had to leave the other members of the class unsupervised in order to carry out these duties ...fair on them?

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 18:29

mrz yes, absolutely fair. But this is my belief. The greater serves the lesser. These roles swap round at various points in our life. Not everybody's belief I know. I'm a bit of a 'hard-liner' in that respect but I feel it's the only way forward...

Expectation, duty or requirement? Yes, here is the bind and a fine line to tread...I know. But you speak up for what you think is right, all the same.

mrz · 01/10/2013 18:43

So while the teacher is changing pants another unsupervised child is seriously injured ...yes that's fair

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 19:04

If needs be. Did you get what I said about prioritisation? Here:

You prioritize your time in accordance with you skills level of course. Would you feel the same about first aid?

And how often has your case scenario happened? I'm sure the TAs are well trained for supervision. In our school they took a lot of the classes because the teachers were on strike.

If everybody is paralysed by their contracts I'm sure a lot of good things would not happen.

The thing is soiling and wetting pants is something that should be expected as a possibility in reception as it is not far outside developmental norms and in fact is common, and should be planned for.

I actually think this country could pare down early education a lot in terms of academic requirements or early learning goals, in order to be in tune with the range of what can be expected at this early age, developmentally.

clam · 01/10/2013 19:18

"In our school they took a lot of the classes because the teachers were on strike."

Slightly off-topic, but if that is the case then your school was acting illegally and your Head Teacher could be in a lot of trouble.

I wonder if the parents of the injured child would agree that it was fair.

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 19:19

Possibly. Was supposedly a 'fun day'. We had a letter about it.

Nothing surprises me...

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 19:21

There has been no injured child.

We are talking hypothetically. Hypothetically a lot can happen.

clam · 01/10/2013 19:23

ancientelm, Not sure of your role in school, but teachers are not allowed to leave their classes unsupervised.

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 19:26

On re-reading mrz* post I realise that she said 'unsupervised'. I thought most reception classes had at least 1 TA?

Even in the 70s we had a nursery nurse. Crikey you could even get the secretary in, in an emergency.

What I am saying is these scenarios should be actively planned for. They are common for the agegroup...

mrz · 01/10/2013 19:47

In the 90s I taught reception classes of 36 without a TA ancientelm and under EYFS the legal ratio in reception is 1 teacher to 30 children Thinking that most reception classes have a TA isn't an excuse.

mrz · 01/10/2013 19:52

Crikey not all schools have full time secretaries either!

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 19:55

So what do you think should happen mrz?

mrz · 01/10/2013 19:59

I think you should refrain from making sweeping remarks about prioritising ...when you don't know individual circumstances.

mrz · 01/10/2013 20:02

How often have I had to leave the class to go and change a child's pants? More times than I care to remember ... when you are in sole charge of a class of 4 year olds it can be a daily occurrence ancientelm!

izziewizzie · 01/10/2013 20:24

Just adding in to this, not read the whole thing, so sorry if I repeat anyone......

My dd (5) has ongoing constipation/diahorrea issues from being born with an imperforate anus, and had a colostomy bag until she was 3.

I found Movicol very difficult to use, I never got the dose right, and dd leaked poo all the time.

Eventually her drs at GOSH agreed to try her on enemas. It's a faff and involves a catheter full of solution being inserted BUT it has been a godsend. It clears impacted poo, and they don't have any option but to go. We do it after school when I notice any mess, and it seems to work.

Next day I put a very discreet pad (you get them in the baby section of Sainsburys and are designed for children with bowel issues) which stops her leaking onto her pants. These can be removed, flushed and replaced. It stops the poo going onto pants/clothes.

I spoke to her teachers, and I have a set of pants/pads in the office. The school is very good over changing the pads if need be.

Dd went through a phase of refusing to tell anyone, thinking she would get in trouble or her friends would know, I spoke to her teachers, and we agreed that if she had an accident she would just go to the teacher and say she needed the toilet, which was a code for "I've done a poo"

I suspect that your child's skids are the same, ie very "sticky" for want of a better word, and simply wiping well with tissue won't cut the mustard, you need to use baby wipes. The school makes sure we have some in the disabled loo that she can use.

You do need to push a bit, as originally dds reception teacher would not have it that dds bowel problems were any different to any other child's, and didn't really get why I was pushing so much. However, dds bowel is VERY different to other childrens, and they now seem to have got it.

Sorry to have babbled, but I have spent nearly the whole of dds life discussing her poo, looking at poo and cleaning up her poo.

I think I'm almost an expert at it

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 21:20

mrz
How often have I had to leave the class to go and change a child's pants? More times than I care to remember ... when you are in sole charge of a class of 4 year olds it can be a daily occurrence ancientelm!

Common occurrence then? Not necessarily SN then. All I am saying is that this should be accepted as a possibility within the norm and planned for.

I don't really care who does the changing personally but realistically would expect all school staff to be prepared to, if that's what is to be expected within this agegroup.

clam · 01/10/2013 21:26

"I don't really care who does the changing personally"

Really? That's good of you. The child and its parents might, however.

ancientelm · 01/10/2013 21:32

clam obviously a member of school staff, with the appropriate checks. This is not my main point as you well know. My main point is that soiling is common, not necessarily SN, should be expected and planned for accordingly. None of this not knowing whether it is allowed and leaving a child sitting in dirty clothing until a parent collects them. The policy should be clearly outlined in the school starting info too.

mrz · 02/10/2013 07:33

Soiling isn't classed as SEN ancientelm just as delayed development

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