Aarrgghh. Third time DS has come out of school in shitty pants!

[Kyrptonite]

Please tell me if I'm over reacting as I had a baby 2 weeks ago and my brain hasn't fully returned to full capacity.

I've posted before about DS (4) and his toileting issues. He had been doing so much better lately and then today for the third time since starting school came out covered in shit. I could smell him as soon as I picked him up. When I asked him why he hadn't asked someone to help him (teacher and 2 TAs in class) he said something about missing playtime or losing golden time if he's naughty.

I'm not brave enough for AIBU but WIBU to compose an email to school asking what they are doing to support him and why no one noticed? He bloody stank and had obviously been like it a while.

I had a meeting before he started where I explained he has a problem. I let the teacher know last week he was on medication and may have an accident.

I don't want him to be bullied. He's waiting for a paediatrician referral for suspected encopresis. He's managed the toilet 4 times last week and I really thought we were getting somewhere.

Thank you. The HT was saying they're a school not a nursery so don't have the resources. But he's still under the EYFS and even that states that he may have accidents at his age so they should be able to deal with it.

MIL is a nursery manager so has offered to come to a meeting with me at the school as although I work in early years I'm probably unable to point out policies etc without getting overly emotional right now. I've been in tears since they phoned worrying about the state he will be in.

OK the fact they are a school MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. Neither does the fact he's in early years, they must support him with toileting even if they were a secondary school.

Schools need to support their pupils with their medical needs to allow them to access education.

If your son had spina biffada and was incontinent the school would have to support him.

If he had learning difficulties making him slow to potty train the school would have to support him.

Encroprisis is no different. It really isn't.

Read up on your rights (does anyone here know the relevant legislation?) Quote it at the Head chapter and verse - he should already know this.

Get a letter from your GP. Contact ERIC for advice. Get a care plan. Insist on it.

They are buck passing but they haven't a leg to stand on. Get angry, not upset.

(but have some anyway cause it is upsetting and stressful but it will pass)

DP went to pick him up. Apparently my email has upset the TA and she didn't know whether she was able to change him or not without a witness which they don't have the staff to do.
DS had been cleaned up pretty well. Not the state I was expecting at all.
I don't care about anyone witnessing him being cleaned up. I don't want him left in his own shit.

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bromleysafeguarding.org%2Fpdfs%2FContinence%2520July%25202009.doc&ei=67FFUreVDueG0AX_xYDYDQ&usg=AFQjCNGijjfDNFvWz8vq463jWs43YvQL3A&sig2=tJaMyxLbQ3S-OuN2Gh6Xxg&bvm=bv.53217764,d.d2k&cad=rja

I think the relevant legislation would be the Equality Act. Do you or the school have access to a continence nurse or a similar service that could provide advice? It doesn't sound like you would need their service but they may have experience of this type of situation.

Thank you for that link Mrz. And thank you to everyone for the responses. I was expecting to be told I should take him out of school until he was sorted!

Introduction

Children of all ages may experience continence issues often related to their age or stage of development; for some children incontinence may be a life-long condition.

All settings must make reasonable adjustments (e.g. additional staff support to meet the needs of each child (Equality Act 2010, Chapter 2 Section 20). Children should not be excluded nor treated less favourably because of their incontinence.

Admissions Policies cannot require a child to be continent as a condition of admission.

Indirect disability discrimination happens when there is a rule, policy or practice that applies to everyone but especially disadvantages children with a particular disability compared with children who do not have that disability.

Therefore parents cannot be required to support their children's care needs in the setting (Equality Act 2010 Chapter 2, section 15)

I feel for you having a child with downs I've spent many years being given carrier bags at the end of the day I felt dreadful for the staff concerned but what can you do? I'm also a TA and like all TA's we are worked to the max with regular groups of children to work with throughout the day , that takes a lot of planning and preparation for, so the call goes out that a child needs assistance, that means that 2 TA's have to stop what they're doing take their group of children back to class, quietly explain to the teacher why the group had come back then go and help the child get themselves clean. Ideally TA's would be valued members of staff and there would be enough in school to meet the varied needs of all children and so we wouldnt feel so stressed that by helping one we're letting down another

From my perspective at 51, it sometimes feels, when I read things on here about how schools behave, as though the world has gone mad!

The school is in loco parentis. If your child has a bowel problem then the school should be looking after him, sensitively. I can't believe that any school would have made an issue about it when I was a primary school child. IMO if the teachers or assistants aren't willing to do so then they're in the wrong job. Like lots of today's nurses.

Good luck, OP, to you and your DS.

Puss as a parent of a disabled child I agree but playing devils advocate I think some teachers and TA's think they're purely there to teach or assist the teacher to teach. A lot will have trained up without giving the necessary thought to the nursing/caring side of the job. Perhaps if the trainers were more honest about what the job entails some potential trainees might think twice as they quite rightly should

Hello Notonaschoolnight (good name!),

You may be right, but I can't help but wonder what's happened to common sense. I'm assuming most teachers and TAs have children of their own and so understand that with youngsters it's never going to be a tidy, sterile environment. If they're used to looking after their own children then why on earth would they not realise that everyone else's children will need the same kind of care during the day? In infants' and primary schools in particular, it's never going to be just about academics.

With my DD I have found that accidents and not being cleaned up has been the norm. It is easy for people to say that its so bad of the school but when my DD is constipated she will refuse to use the toilet and will deny she is dirty. Even when cleaned up she would have another accident. The way I looked at it was if I couldn't keep her clean at home (I didn't always notice immediately as she would avoid me) there is no way the teacher could always do it. I talked to the teacher about it they told me how they were helping her and I left it at that.

It is extremely distressing having to deal with this everyday and heartbreaking watching but all you can do is take a step back and stay calm, keep up with the movicol, a good diet and toilet routine.I have found the dr, HV and the school nurse pretty useless but after 18 months on movicol things are not perfect but better. It has taken that long and when she first started reception it was bad but it did eventually settled down.

The other thing is there will be other children in the class with toilet issues. I think the stats are 1 in 10 at this age. No one will bat an eye at a bag of dirty clothes.

Hi OP
Nothing useful to add only to say be strong you are in the right. Of course the school should help your son. Seems like common sense has gone out of the window.
Yes take MIL along to meeting. Write down all your points too.
These schools take children younger and younger to get funding and then ignore the fact they are only four! Makes me so angry. How is it fair on the poor child?
Yes I appreciate teachers are busy but they can anticipate they will have children every year who need assistance, and employ a nursery nurse not TA.

Take this NUT guidance to the meeting, which clearly states that teachers cannot be compelled to change children, but that support staff can.

It also clearly states that there is no safeguarding need for two members of staff to change one child in normal circumstances.

The NUT is slightly misleading ...support staff can only be compelled if it is in their terms of contract but a school should employ someone on their staff to fulfil the need.

UNISON guidance for support staff here

The Head changes nappies in our school.

Thank you everyone. I'm feeling really guilty that I've upset the TA. I didn't think the head would repeat my email word for word but discretely ask that his clothes are put in his PE bag.

I'm really confused as to whether they have to change DS or not. Everything I read seems to he be differing views! I'm going to arrange a meeting and see what they say. MIL is of the opinion that if I say I'm going to withdraw him from school that they will come up with a plan as they won't want to lose the funding for him.

It's an ofsted outstanding school. We chose it because it was small and we thought DS had a better chance of succeeding there. I had thought of taking him out and finding another place but (not a stealth boast) he's beginning to do sums, reading and can spell and write words after seeing them once. Being stuck at home with me whilst I find a new school would drive him potty!

Achieving continence is usually a developmental milestone that is reached before a pupil enters a learning setting. However for some pupils this may not be the case and the reason for the delay may be unclear. It is therefore appropriate for schools to meet the needs of a pupil with delayed personal development in the same way as they would meet the individual needs of a pupil with a diagnosed disability.

"Asking parents/carers of a child to come and change a child is likely to be a direct contravention of the DDA, and leaving a child in a soiled nappy for any length of time pending the return of the parent/carer is a form of abuse."

That's from the ERIC site isn't it Mrz? I thought about printing their leaflet out and taking it in.

The Equaliy Act is the law and does require children to be changed. That's the important bit.

The union advice is just advice and relates to how the requirement to change children applies to individual staff. That bit is only important as to WHO does the changing. The school have to change the child quickly to comply with the law. How exactly they do it which individual staff member does it is irrelevant. It is no answer to say none of our staff have contract terms to require them to change your child so no one will. They have to find someone to do the change, hence heads sometimes doing nappies.

Of course a member of staff would not be required to change a child if the child refused to let them. That's a different matter.

I linked to union advice for the OP to take to her meeting, Ghoul- it may be useful to refute any claims that they are not obliged to change a child.

Tethers - yes I know and it probably is. OP said she was unclear what the school are actually required to do so I was trying to sort out the law (which they have to follow) from guidance which is only an interpretation of the law which may or may not be right :)