If your child asks you how to spell something...

[Fluffymonster]

I was in a school-based reading/writing session with my dd today, which involved reading a book with her, then her writing three sentences to summarise the story.

The teacher mentioned at the start not to worry too much about spelling etc. as long as they get the sounds right. Fair enough.

In working out the sentences though, dd was suddenly unsure of how to spell "woman" as WOMAN or WOMUN and asked me which it was. She got the WO bit correct, and then for the rest, I said "when you say "man", is it muh-ah-nnn, or muh-uh-nnn?" She then worked it out.

I also pointed out to her that she had written "g" backwards a couple of times, and reminded her that "g" and "y" sits on the line, with their 'tails' hanging down below. They were 'floating', which she does habitually. In general her writing is good - neat, good spelling, good spacing of the letters, letters fairly even in size. So I was giving her constructive feedback on areas she could easily improve on, I thought.

At the end the teacher came over and had a look, and asked dd if she did it by herself, or if mummy helped her. Dd said she had a bit of help from me, so I explained where I had given my input. The teacher reiterated not to worry too much about spelling as it's far more important that they get the sounds right. Slightly slapped wrist I felt.

Well, I know, but I didn't just give her the answer, I prompted her to sound it out - was I wrong to even 'prompt'?

So next time do I just shrug, even if dd's asking me a question? I have to say if she spells something incorrectly and I'm sat there, I can imagine myself getting the urge to do what I did again - why is it not the done thing? And with the letters sitting on the line - well, it's practice isn't it, if she's not reminded to look at the position of the letters, how is she going to learn to remember?

A teacher shouldn't interfere between a mother and her daughter. If you want to teach her how to spell it's up to you, she's your daughter. If the teacher was being helpful she could reassure parents that it's not necessary to get worked up about spellings at this age. But to tell you what to spell with your daughter, when to spell it and how to spell it is out of order. If they don't want parents spelling with their children in school then they shouldn't invite them in.

How old is your DD?

I'd have left the handwriting alone but would have suggested sounding out as a solution and then let it go.

Not at this stage yet but I don't understand the whole thing about spelling - surely good spelling is a useful (if not essential) skill? I am of the generation that had to learn spellings every week (before phonics), and spelling mistakes in work handed in had to be written out three times.

I'll be doing similar with my daughter when she's old enough. I see far too many grammatical and spelling errors amongst friends of mine (particularly those who are a bit younger) where presumably, focus was not on spelling at the time they were learning.

[old gimmer emoticon]

I would have done exactly the same as you. My DS is in year one and the step up to year 2 will be big for him.
I agree that practice makes perfect and that if no one ever points out incorrect letter formation or placing of the letters then how can the child start to remember to correct themselves.
DSs class teacher seems so relaxed about it all, I feel like a pushy parent!

When we do his homework together i can't help but show him how to spell things correctly.

You don't mention how old your child is & it is possible that the teacher may have her reasons for requesting that you don't focus too much on correcting her AT THIS STAGE. It is not to say- don't ever correct her or that she won't ever be corrected, but I can think of several reasons why.

For example- if I had a child that was a reluctant writer in my class, I would want to focus first on effort. Let her enjoy using the skills she does have before worrying about the end product. She may want to know their phonetic knowledge (which now cannot be assessed accurately with this work because you corrected her) , She might want to know her ability to decode words using her OWN knowledge. She may also want to ensure any correcting was done in a really sensitive & appropriate way. Not to say you didn't, it is just important to always consider how, where & why we give children feedback.

I wouldn't be to quick too feel upset or to assume the teacher is being slack. There may be very valid reasons.

Also learnandsay: The teacher is focusing her advice on what she knows best- education & teaching. She is not interfering with OPs parenting, but it might be a possibility that by ignoring the teachers advice, the OP may be interfering with a specific target or teaching strategy, if so the teacher has every right to point it out. If the OP chooses to ignore the professional's advice that is up to her.

It sounds to me like you responded really well.

Its not like you just told her the answers is it? Surely you were there for a reason, and that is to help her when she has difficulties, which you did. I take the point about the focus of the class being the summarizing part, but everybody is more receptive to learn the thing that interests them at the moment (or in teaching terms, having an "activated schemata") - which for your daughter was the spelling. Its a much better idea to seize the opportunity to teach what the student is receptive to learning, rather than forcing them to focus on another aspect just because that's what is on the teachers plan that day.

I also think the teachers response to your daughter ("was it your own work?") was terrible. What your daughter could interpret that as is "you must have cheated, your work is usually much worse than this, I dont believe you are capable of doing something this good" !!!!

As a teacher and literacy coordinator you did exactly what I would do. You didn't give your daughter the spellings just helped her work it out herself. I would probably have said "woman" very precisely first to give her the chance to hear the sounds herself but otherwise I think you did much better than a teacher who is allowing a child to develop poor habits.

Thanks for all your responses - dd is 5yo, in Yr1.

The group is completely optional, just for any interested/available parents, to go in and read/write with their children for an hr, once a week.

It's actually referred to as a 'writing club', so I think it's a combination of reading, and then writing. It's not run by dd's regular class teacher, but by another teacher, who seems to know dd somewhat, but not that well.

teacherlikesapples
I didn't correct her phonetic knowledge - just prompted her to sound it out herself. Yes, I corrected her about the g's being backwards and the placing of letters, but as others have said, if they don't want parents to help, what is the point of us being there?

However, I do take your point, that it might have been an 'initial assessment' type thing, as it was the first session, (even though I'm fairly certain she said that there'd be no marking/assessments, just a space for kids/parents to do something together). Perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

MummyAbroad I felt like we'd been caught cheating lol. She even said to dd "tell the truth"! - so I totally got the impression that I wasn't supposed to have helped, whatsoever! But, thinking about it, it may be that she thinks I helped a LOT more than I did. Maybe she thinks I told her what to write, how to spell everything, where to put full stops etc! Fact is, Dd is actually a very good reader (Treetops Stage 14 books), and quite enjoys writing - the main reason that I am doing this group with her, is because she enjoys it and wanted to do it, and there's always room for improvement, but it's not that she is 'struggling' per se. So it's conceivable that the teacher might have lower expectations of what dd is capable of, than she actually is. Oh well if so, it'll get sorted out soon enough.

mrz That's very reassuring! Thank you.

It would be extremely odd for a teacher to do an assessment lesson with parents helping at tables Fluffymonster so I wouldn't give that a second thought.

As for the idea that you were correcting her phonic knowledge you were in fact helping her to use that knowledge more effectively.

Sorry- when I say assessment, I don't mean in the recorded official sense, I mean more of a judgement on the capabilities of the children. Getting a feel for what they know, how they respond to different activities. Something that teachers are always assessing & collecting information on- particularly if they are very young and/or new.

The teacher definitely could have handled the situation differently/better, but in other ways, I just think it might be helpful to consider that there might have been a valid reason why she specifically said not to worry about correcting her with the spelling at this stage, and why it might have felt a bit annoying for you to ignore that.

"Sorry- when I say assessment, I don't mean in the recorded official sense," neither did I ... are you honestly suggesting that you would invite parents into the class for a weekly reading/writing group then use what they produced to make judgements?

The children are Y1 so they have been in school nearly TWO years!

Hi -retired TA (male) here :

In my experience these type of 'Family Learning' sessions in our area were often aimed at parents who had less understanding of schooling and how to best support their children, so the PARENT is learning, as well as the CHILD. However, this would not appear to be the purpose here.

Some classes in my school did invite parents in for an hour a week, to share books, reading with their own and other children in an informal way. Although no 'teaching' of the adults was intended, teachers and TAs would automatically model 'best practice', so parents might absorb some strategies.

If it is billed as a 'writing club' perhaps the teacher needs to clarify exactly what its aims and constraints are; as it is a new venture, this will hopefully soon be made clear.

If the teacher considers not supporting a child to use their phonic knowledge effectively or not correcting poor letter formation as best practice they aren't in a position to model for parents

mrz- if for example- I had a reluctant child, thought perhaps there were some confidence issues & the child had some anxiety about 'getting things right' rather than trying their best, then sure. Teaching strategies for identifying mistakes would come at an appropriate point (FOR THAT CHILD), but if confidence or involvement was a concern I would want to give specific support for how & when they gave correcting feedback.

In terms of the family day- I would be very interested to see parent/child interaction. In terms of making judgements & collecting information - this is part of my daily practice. So yes of course- every observation informs my planning, so that it is responsive to the constantly changing needs of the individual child.

I work with the EYFS, and not year 1, so perhaps the Characteristics of Effective Learning are COMPLETELY different 1 year later -so what would I know right?

Also " If the teacher considers not supporting a child to use their phonic knowledge effectively or not correcting poor letter formation as best practice they aren't in a position to model for parents"

You are making an assumption based on very little information. You don't know that she doesn't support them to use their phonic knowledge etc...
She just didn't want the parent involved in that particular aspect on this particular day. That is all that is certain.

I worked in EYFS for 2 decades teacherlikeapples (and know the characteristics of effective learning) and I'm now KS1 leader /SENCO and Literacy coordinator and allowing children to continue poor letter formation for TWO years is poor practice supporting a child to apply their phonic knowledge is good practice in any KS.

and you seem to be the one making assumptions about reluctant writers

mrz: but that is just the thing, the OP hasn't said anything about how the teacher works with the child, she has only said what she asked her to do/not do during this 1 session. So she may well be working with the child on her letter formation etc...

I also only used reluctant writers as one example. I cannot say whether the OPs child is one because I don't think there has been enough information given to make judgements on the teacher in this situation or the child's capabilities.

Every single time I asked my dad how to spell something (whether I was 5 or 15!) the response would always be "how do you think you spell it?" :o

"The teacher mentioned at the start not to worry too much about spelling etc. as long as they get the sounds right."

and the OP helped her child hear the sounds in the word woman where the letter is a schwa so the only way she can get the sounds right is by precise pronunciation which is exactly what the OP did

The teacher definitely could have handled the situation differently/better, but in other ways, I just think it might be helpful to consider that there might have been a valid reason why she specifically said not to worry about correcting her with the spelling at this stage, and why it might have felt a bit annoying for you to ignore that.

teacherlikesapples- once again, I didn't ignore it. Not sure why you keep thinking I chose to "ignore a professional's advice" as it's not what happened. I simply prompted her to sound out the words! Prompting isn't the same as correcting. (Incidentally she didn't even say "no correcting", just "don't worry too much about spelling").

If the teacher wanted no prompting, she could have made that more clear. It just left me a bit confused about what I should/shouldn't be doing (but now I think it wasn't anything that wrong and will probably carry on). In fact, why bother inviting parents in to the first session anyway in that case - why not just do it without the parents and invite them in at a later date, when additional suppot is allowed? Otherwise what are we there for - to observe the kids working on their own?

FWIW dd isn't a 'reluctant writer'. She'll write little bits and pieces for fun, in her own time, outside school. Just because she feels like it. When I told her about the writing club and asked her if she would like us to go to it together - she was really keen!

Anyway, thanks for your perspective, it's useful to have someone play the devil's advocate role.

Ferguson - Hmm. Interesting. Actually, it may be as you describe, a way for the school to help parents as well as the children - as a lot of pupils don't have english as their first language. I'm beginning to wonder if I was too keen, and may have made a mistake signing up for it (hope not). Perhaps dd may benefit more from staying in her usual class doing something like maths instead (which she is weaker at)! Oops.

oh good a bit of a bun fight on here

If Ferguson's point about the aim possibly being parental learning (which the school might feel was needed to combat poor standards), then perhaps the teachers expectations were just MUCH MUCH lower than we are assuming and she genuinely thought the OP did the entire piece of work and her daughter contributed nothing?

I think the focus for kids at this stage is just to make sure they are building up confidence about getting things down on paper and developing their ideas. I think that the concern is that by correcting children it can affect their developing confidence in their ideas, which is the primary focus. I don't think what you did was wrong but maybe the teacher was just encouraging you to maintain what her focus of the session was - I think the spelling and neatness does naturally follow. (My DD is now in year 3 and this has definitely happened).

MrsCosmopilite - in my experience there is still a massive focus on spelling and grammar but it is just at a slightly later stage. Children are encouraged to develop their skills in phonics and understanding first, the spelling (with weekly spelling tests) and grammar comes after. I think that this does seem to fit well with their natural development and how their thinking progresses.