If your child asks you how to spell something...

[Fluffymonster]

I was in a school-based reading/writing session with my dd today, which involved reading a book with her, then her writing three sentences to summarise the story.

The teacher mentioned at the start not to worry too much about spelling etc. as long as they get the sounds right. Fair enough.

In working out the sentences though, dd was suddenly unsure of how to spell "woman" as WOMAN or WOMUN and asked me which it was. She got the WO bit correct, and then for the rest, I said "when you say "man", is it muh-ah-nnn, or muh-uh-nnn?" She then worked it out.

I also pointed out to her that she had written "g" backwards a couple of times, and reminded her that "g" and "y" sits on the line, with their 'tails' hanging down below. They were 'floating', which she does habitually. In general her writing is good - neat, good spelling, good spacing of the letters, letters fairly even in size. So I was giving her constructive feedback on areas she could easily improve on, I thought.

At the end the teacher came over and had a look, and asked dd if she did it by herself, or if mummy helped her. Dd said she had a bit of help from me, so I explained where I had given my input. The teacher reiterated not to worry too much about spelling as it's far more important that they get the sounds right. Slightly slapped wrist I felt.

Well, I know, but I didn't just give her the answer, I prompted her to sound it out - was I wrong to even 'prompt'?

So next time do I just shrug, even if dd's asking me a question? I have to say if she spells something incorrectly and I'm sat there, I can imagine myself getting the urge to do what I did again - why is it not the done thing? And with the letters sitting on the line - well, it's practice isn't it, if she's not reminded to look at the position of the letters, how is she going to learn to remember?

Weekly spelling tests are a very ineffective way to "teach" spelling and the more times a child sees a word spelt incorrectly the more likely they will learn the incorrect spelling.
Grammar comes before they even put pencil to paper or set foot in nursery/pre school.

Oh for goodness sake!
I'm a teacher.
Just wait until they try to tell me not to interfere! Lol
I would have done exactly a you did.
I'm positive that your daughter learned from and will remember the fantastic 1:1 support that you gave to her. Far more than she'll get in a typical day school!
Minot a believer in getting pupils habituated in writing 'how it sounds'. As we all know, phonetic spellings often incorrect and allow the pupil to repeat and rehearse incorrect spellings. It also encourages them to assume that phonetically plausible attempts are correct and need no further consideration. Far better that you encourage her to realise that 'how it sounds isn't always how we write it'. Then sound out and write each letter/ blend that you write out in the word you're demonstrating to her (e.g. w/o/m/a/n). Say it as it is SPELLED as you write each letter. Encourage her to write non-phonetic letters as they are spelled vs said/pronounced.
Hereby the end of the ranting lecture.
The teacher can blummin' well stick to her own narrow objectives in her classroom. You're The Mummy - and your input, objectivity and 'services' are invaluable to your DD. never doubt it.
However, I'd not want your DD tiger into trouble for having received help. Maybe do this with a daily diary that you write together. A line or two will do ;)

Please excuse fat fingers!

"(e.g. w/o/m/a/n). Say it as it is SPELLED as you write each letter. Encourage her to write non-phonetic letters as they are spelled vs said/pronounced."
what is non-phonetic about woman? [interested]

teacherlikesapples - I didn't mean to sound like I was lobbing buns in my previous post. Was getting a bit defensive!

Honestly, thanks for your input and putting forward some possibilities of what the teacher may have been intending (regardless of execution).

I meant regardless of the teacher's execution!! Of her intentions. Oh dear!

Crap at peacekeeping.

:) No problem- personally I wouldn't have had an issue with the way you got involved & hopefully the teacher will reflect on the way that she handled the situation (as she definitely could have communicated better & then handled the follow up a lot better) Just thought it was worthwhile pointing out that she may have started with valid reasoning, her execution just wasn't very good.

Ideally these family sessions should leave you feeling clear on how to support your child's learning! You sound like a great Mum & the fact that you are reflecting on this interaction and looking for answers confirms it.

Not sure why some teachers are being prickly here. Terrific knowledge and handling of the situation, Fluffymonster - congrats.

I'm a qualified primary teacher and I feel that it was probably a little bit silly for the teacher to have had you there during any sort of informal assessment as if the child is supposed to be doing independent work then let them do that! Independently! Not your fault that's the teachers! However if they're supposed to be doing it completely alone my answer is always 'however you think you should spell it' if they persist with another question answer again with same answer. Then when they finished at another time you can remember questions they were asking and help them then? Hope that's helpful x

Fuzzpig - that's what I do with my DD

!

However you think you should spell it sounds a little like teasing. I'm not sure how it's meant to sound. If I want my daughter to answer a question instead of asking me it, I ask her questions leading up to it. Do you remember how you spelled it last time? What does it start with and so on. I know that if you give her too much help then the work isn't independent. But I'm not sure I'd want a teacher fobbing my daughter off when she's plainly asking for help (even help she doesn't need.)

If its a word that I know she can spell correctly I would correct her (after she has tried) but atm I am happy to let her try to spell phonetically as it is all about her having the confidence to give things a go.

Just letting her run through the options is worthwhile on its own.

Children are used to this in schools as even at 5 they often have to do work independently so teachers can check their process...it's not 'fobbing them off' I clearly put I would the go through it all later...

On Wednesday one of my 5 year olds asked how to spell dictionary ... I asked what sounds he could hear and told him the sound /sh/ was spelt ...all the help he needed to get it right first attempt.

This must be the place to start developing spelling strategies, because we all know people (adults) who never developed them and still can't spell any complex words, (and even misspell some simple ones.)

Sorry OP, didnt mean to insinuate that you were the one throwing buns. You are very good at peacekeeping

Mrs the "o" and the "a" in woman are pronounced as schwas - (the "er" sound) not "o" as in "hot" and "a" as in "apple" as you would expect if it was pronounced phonetically.

Mutley77 If the teachers aim was to build confidence, then she didnt do a very good job by acting like she didnt believe the little girl did the work herself. I cant think of anything more confidence shattering than to be questioned over whether it was your own work or not or being told you concentrated on the wrong thing. If it was about confidence surely there would have been some praise for the bits she did do right?

do you say "wermun" MummyAbroad? The letter represents the sound /u/ as in son and won.

Mrz, 'woman' isn't spelled phonetically, otherwise it'd be 'wu' (short vowel 'u') 'm-shwa-n'. V hard to write using phonetic alphabet/ representation using my keyboard. Trust me, it's not spelled phonetically.

phonicsy people have a sort of cop-out where they admit that certain words, like yacht and women, don't follow, or entirely follow their rules, and that should just be OK with that.

mrs I think MummaBubba123 explained it well. We use schwas for all non stressed syllables in connected speech. Only if we are using a word in isolation or giving it special emphasis do we say the proper vowel sounds, thats why we pronounce "the" as "ther" ** when its in a sentence but "Thee" when emphasising / saying it in isolation.

However I am wrong about there being two schwas in woman, there is only one, on the second syllable. see here

here is a couple of quotes from that page: "The schwa represents a mid-central vowel in an unstressed syllable, such as the second syllable of woman and the second syllable of buses"

"Children commonly misrepresent the schwa vowel and spell these words: ulone for alone, pencol for pencil, suringe for syringe, and takin for taken...These aforementioned misunderstandings generally disappear as the child advances in his reasoning and knowledge of the English language"

borrowing MummaBubba123's shorthand, "er" = schwa

MummyAbroad she explained incorrectly ... woman is spelt phonetically because the letter is an alternative spelling for the sound /u/ (son, won, come, some etc...) just as is an alternative for /ay/ and is an alternative for /f/ for example.

learnandsay there is no cop out "woman" follows the alphabetic code.

All words follow the alphabetic code. It's simply that phonicsy people's definitions of the alphabetic code gloss over the bits that don't make any sense, like silent letters and letters which on rare occasions are pronounced radically differently from how they're normally used. When that happens it's not very codified. It's just a hangover from some historic way of speaking. It's accidental.