If your child asks you how to spell something...

[Fluffymonster]

I was in a school-based reading/writing session with my dd today, which involved reading a book with her, then her writing three sentences to summarise the story.

The teacher mentioned at the start not to worry too much about spelling etc. as long as they get the sounds right. Fair enough.

In working out the sentences though, dd was suddenly unsure of how to spell "woman" as WOMAN or WOMUN and asked me which it was. She got the WO bit correct, and then for the rest, I said "when you say "man", is it muh-ah-nnn, or muh-uh-nnn?" She then worked it out.

I also pointed out to her that she had written "g" backwards a couple of times, and reminded her that "g" and "y" sits on the line, with their 'tails' hanging down below. They were 'floating', which she does habitually. In general her writing is good - neat, good spelling, good spacing of the letters, letters fairly even in size. So I was giving her constructive feedback on areas she could easily improve on, I thought.

At the end the teacher came over and had a look, and asked dd if she did it by herself, or if mummy helped her. Dd said she had a bit of help from me, so I explained where I had given my input. The teacher reiterated not to worry too much about spelling as it's far more important that they get the sounds right. Slightly slapped wrist I felt.

Well, I know, but I didn't just give her the answer, I prompted her to sound it out - was I wrong to even 'prompt'?

So next time do I just shrug, even if dd's asking me a question? I have to say if she spells something incorrectly and I'm sat there, I can imagine myself getting the urge to do what I did again - why is it not the done thing? And with the letters sitting on the line - well, it's practice isn't it, if she's not reminded to look at the position of the letters, how is she going to learn to remember?

I think whoever it is who is going on about woman is stuck in a different loop.

In practical terms a spelling/sound combination doesn't have to be unique, just rare to be treated as a special case. I don't want my children being burdened by combinations they'll rarely or never use. I'm satisfied that cello is a rare enough example to have no need of vermicelli (unless we eat a lot of it.) Cesare, too. But no need to fill the house with Italian nouns simply because of one instrument.

sorry, I dont know of a better way of explaining it, but to me "man" is phonetic, and "woman" is not because the "a" is pronounced as a schwa not as an "a".

I'm off now, its all a bit confusing...

Maybe, but you can pronounce the "a" if you want to. But I can't see how you could fail to pronounce the o in women as i and still be understood. Perhaps if you just said wmen quickly it might work. I'll have to try it sometime.

but a schwa is the most common vowel phoneme in English so why would you consider it not phonetic?

mrs well because children at school dont learn to spell using the phonetic alphabet. They use 26 letters, none of which is a schwa. If you ask a child to sound out the letters in WOMAN to get the right spelling, they may well get it wrong, and it wouldnt be their fault. It only works for some words (like MAN) but not all.

If we used the schwa symbol to write, then the OP's daughter would have had no problem at all!

Anyway, that's why I think it is not phonetic, and troublesome to spell, and I have exhausted myself trying to explain it in lots of different ways so I hope that satisfies your interest!

learnandsay "Maybe, but you can pronounce the "a" if you want to." I think you would sound weird

This schwa business is just the result of people not speaking properly.

Within a couple of hundred years the language will have disappeared into one endless mumble.

I can't comment about how children are taught where you are MummyAbroad but in the UK children are taught to spell using phonics (not the phonetic alphabet) but the letters or combinations of letters that represent the sounds in spoken language. A supportive adult such as the OP would use precise pronunciation (as approved of by Learnandsay) to help a child choose the correct representation for the schwa.

If you asked a child who typically spelled unknown words phonetically, they are likely to produce 'wemun' since the 'short e vowel' is the closest sound in the phonics that theud habe learned to the shwa sound representing the 'o'.

Fat fingers: 'they'd' 'have'.
We don't actually pronounce the word 'woman' with straight short vowel sounds, as the spelling would suggest.

You could try telling that to the children in my class MummaBubba because they would laugh at the idea.

I have honestly never met a child or adult who would use the sound /e/ to represent the letter in woman

Mrz, you obviously know best and have lots of time to tell us. I know where to come when I don't know something about teaching!

mrz they use the Spanish alphabet (which is phonetic)

I agree with what MummaBubba123 says, sounds a lot like the bit I quoted earlier ""Children commonly misrepresent the schwa vowel and spell these words: ulone for alone, pencol for pencil, suringe for syringe, and takin"

I'm not sure I have enough time to support your needs MummaBubba. You could try a good phonics training course.

"I have honestly never met a child or adult who would use the sound /e/ to represent the letter in woman"

Its the SECOND SYLLABLE, THE 'A' NOT THE 'O'

Interesting MummyAbroad but that doesn't explain how they are taught.

Now you want me to explain how children in the country I live in are taught to read? I thought you were interested in why I thought the word "woman" wasnt phonetic? I think I have explained that to death Wouldnt you rather just explain to us why you think it IS phonetic? we might not pay attention though

MummaBubba123 Sun 09-Jun-13 21:50:59

If you asked a child who typically spelled unknown words phonetically, they are likely to produce 'wemun' since the 'short e vowel' is the closest sound in the phonics that theud habe learned to the shwa sound representing the 'o'

Perhaps you would read what MummaBubba posted MummyAbroad and look where she placed the e ...

or do you have a sight problem?

No MummyAbroad I don't want you to explain anything

Just to respond to the OP: I would say the teacher was absolutely wrong. I've also experienced this attitude of "not to bother their little heads with it" and I feel very disdainful of it.

And I would also say you don't stop helping your daughter if she asks, or worse pretend you don't know. Honestly. If the teacher really wants you to do that she's mad. Is this a trained teacher or a teaching assistant?

I think I've explain why it is phonetic.
Spoken sounds are represented in writing by a letter or combination of letters ... a schwa is a spoken sound (unstressed vowel) and is represented in the word woman by the letter just because it is more complex it doesn't mean it is non-phonetic.