So... Welsh. Why?

[gaelicsheep]

This is a thread to pick up a discussion that began on another thread about Welsh medium education. It isn't about Welsh medium. It's about compulsory Welsh to 16 in all other schools. It is hard as a non Welsh person to complain about this without sounding xenophobic so I am merely opening the floor if anyone is interested.

The thing is when the government do try to provide languages for all groups, they get shit for that as well. Can't win really. Basically, a lot of people want England for the English, and only English spoken.

My children were born in the Outer Hebrides. It's not Welsh, it's Gaelic. They lived there until they were 6, 4, 2 and dd1 started school there, went to Croiligean (Gaelic nursery) and roinnigean Beag (creche for age 2-3) there.

When we moved to Glasgow, we'd researched the bilingualism thing enough that we continued - and now SGG (Sgoil Ghaidlig Glaschu - Glasgow Gaelic School) is the largest primary in Glasgow, they're building another school here and Edinburgh is now getting a dedicated Gaelic school too.

It's a bit political here - there's a lot of comment about the "Gaelic mafia" - those who don't let their dc speak anything else, and are very involved in school issues. But most folk are in it for the immense benefits of bilingual education, and kind of for the school culture in the motto "Da Canan, Da Chultar, iomadh cothron" which means "2 languages, 2 cultures, many opportunities".

I'm an English language teacher, but I really value the extra language my children learn. And the cultural advantages such as music, singing, sports that a bi-cultural school brings.

agree with dotties, we speak Welsh because that is our language, just the same as you speak English because that is your language. I'm sure people don't complain about people speaking Italian when they visit Italy. I've heard about people complaining about Welsh being spoken in the workplace too. Yes we are bilingual but if Welsh is your first language, it feels so awkward to speak English to someone you normally speak Welsh to. I speak French and so does my DH but I would feel like a twat speaking to him in French.

Well said weegie.

Though I pity anyone having to learn Gaelic from scratch. It's about 1,000,000 times harder than Welsh

Just to add another perspective. I was brought up in NE Wales and learnt Welsh at school until I was 14, when we moved to The Other Place I live in that London and have no need of Welsh at all. I still wish I had been sent to a WM school because it's part of my culture. I can pronounce it and sing various hymns but that's all I know beyond the basics, and it's a shame. I know a lot of people who have moved back and sent their children to WM schools so they become fluent. If we lived closer we'd definitely consider the London Welsh School for DS. It's also a really lovely language to speak and sing in. It's not just about what you need for your job.

FWIW, I had to do a half GCSE in Welsh & half in RE. I also did separate sciences. By the time my DSis made it to GCSEs they'd stopped doing separate sciences at that school purely because it was extra work for the teachers & created scheduling issues, nothing to do with prioritising Welsh AFAIK.

I was born & brought up in Wales but have English parents. Neither of them have any Welsh qualifications & both work in the NHS. I genuinely wish I'd gone to a WM school so I could've been a bit more bilingual. I'm now living in England, married to an Englishman who I have 1.5 more GCSEs than with 1 English DS & another on the way. I speak as much of my very limited Welsh as possible to my DS & have quite a lot of bilingual books & DVDs. I'm hoping we can learn together in a more natural, conversational way than we were taught in school.

Personally, I think it's really valuable for Welsh to be taught in schools but it does need to have more of a positive vibe. At school, for us at least, Welsh was done because it had to be, there was very little suggestion that we should love the language. Even the teachers seemed to assume that teaching us was a battle between us not wanting to know & them having to teach us. Absolutely no passion for the subject from the 'experts'. Our teachers would regularly speak to each other in Welsh because they assumed we wouldn't be able to understand them. More fool them when they were caught having 'personal' conversations by a Welsh-speaking child! The same could be said for every subject at the school though. I can only think of one teacher who genuinely seemed to love her subject & wanted to inspire others to love it too.

I digress. Basically I think Welsh should be taught, indeed compulsory, in schools & usage encouraged conversationally but I don't think children should be punished for not using it. Surely if a teacher speaks to a child in Welsh & they can reply in English that demonstrates their understanding at least!

My nephew, aged two, was born in London to his Londoner dad and my sis, who was born in Wales to English parents like me. He has picked up a perfect "Ach y fi!" and "Mae'n twp", I think from my mum . He's progressed this afternoon to "Mae'n bwrw eira".

I don't think he even realises they're words from another language. It's interesting.

Yes, sorry I know Powys has ancient roots, it's just those roots don't take into account it's way easier to go West into England than north into the rest of Powys or south to Cardiff. This makes the bit of Wales I still call home a bit of an anomaly, perhaps.

MechanicalTheatre - you are right. Unlike when I lived in Scotland I have no prior connection with Wales so I'm struggling to feel it. I guess it feels like the different language puts another barrier in the way of that. It's like emigrating by accident . But I hope you and others have seen that I have been persuaded that learning Welsh will be good for the DCs. I suppose I'm also sad they won't get the opportunity to learn Gaelic as I always hoped they would.

Startail do you mean east into England?

gaelicsheep I think you have hit the nail on the head. Moving to Wales is like emigrating. It is another country with its own unique language and history.

OP, could you teach your children Gaelic?

I'm a Doric speaker and the thought of any child of mine spikkin wi a ploom in their moo makes me come over all funny.

OP, could you teach your children Gaelic?

I'm a Doric speaker and the thought of any child of mine spikkin wi a ploom in their moo makes me come over all funny.

The problem with lots of English people is that they just see Wales as an extension of England. Like the UK has England and some other places.... I say this as an English woman born and bread who is moving at some point to Wales and yes, it is another country and very very happy that my children will be living in another culture and language. In fact, most of my children are going into the independent system so it is not compulsory there. Whatever I will make sure they learn the language of the country we will be living in.

I hate to say it pansy, but I do agree with you. There is so often an arrogance in England that other cultures are the same as theirs - or that they should be.

I love England, have lived here for a long time but there are big differences between here and home.

Its similar to the way some English people regard Australia. They dont seem to understand that Australia is a country that has its own different ways. Alot of English people go to Australia believing that it will be like the UK but hotter when in fact it is not. Alot of English people feel that they are not welcome when they get to Australia but what they dont understand is that if they tried to intigrate themselves with the ways of the Australians rather than moaning about all the differences that they would get on better and would be accepted.

MT - unfortunately I don't speak Gaelic myself, although I did always fancy learning. But languages don't come naturally to me, so I think that's now even less likely than me learning Welsh. . We do still watch BBC Alba though, mostly for the music programmes.

I am reading the comment about English people - I am English by birth, not sure if anyone twigged that - and I am ashamed to realise I seem to have the same attitude that I hate in others. In my defence, I do think it is the circumstances that have created this situation in my case. Equally I will admit I would not choose to move to a very Welsh part of Wales because I do think I would struggle with the language side of things. Same as I wouldn't move abroad. What I wouldn't do, honestly, is move to an obviously Welsh speaking area and complain about people speaking Welsh.

I've learned a lot on this thread, so thank you. And most of you seem lovely.

I think that's my problem, going home is getting more and more like visiting a foreign country.

There are Welsh signs on all the roads, not just those that always had Welsh names, Welsh signs in the supermarket and weirdest of all it says Ysgol on my old school gate.

I feel an alien in the place I call home and it makes me sad. Sad both because I know I can never go home and sad for my old friends.

As I have said non of my generation, or my parents generation speak Welsh. I feel that devolution has imposed a form of Welsh Nationalism on the area from outside. A form of nationalism that isn't theirs and that they don't want to pay for.

They and especially their children are part of Cardiff's elites master plan and that is just as alien to a hill sheep farmer as nonsense out of London is to those of us in rural England.

Startail ...you say non of your generation or your parents generation speak Welsh. Do you mean just the people you know or everyone in your whole area? Are you yourself Welsh? Obviously Wales is another Country. Welsh Nationalism is very strong in most of Wales. People whether they speak Welsh or not are proud of their heritage, history, language and culture. Its not imposed from outside of Wales, its here in Wales. Welsh people have fought years and years , throughout history to have their country recognised as an independant place. Not part of England but a country in its own right. All are signs are in Welsh and English as well and our schools have always been "ysgol". What happens in Cardiff is not alien to us nor the the many hill sheep farmers around us.

Really Startail? What an odd situation. I love going home to Wales. It will always be the place I belong most, even though I'm not fluent in the language. Language is a big part of Wales but by no means all of it.

I think I have a different perspective to gaelicsheep on this. I love the fact that my dc speak Gaelic, listening to them nattering away to our next-door neighbours when we go back to the Hebrides brings a glow to my heart.

But if we lived in Wales, I'd have them in Welsh medium. I'd never send them to English-medium abroad, always local language (though that's not really an issue).

We'd a massive discussion with dh's family when we were sorting out guardianship - we'd planned for it to be dh's brother and SIL, but it got very contentious and political as we'd hope to maintain Gaelic education in that situation - and in N.Ireland that's catholic/republican, and dh's family aren't - very much protestant/unionist!! In the end, my best friend, who is happy to keep my dc in their established education, will be their guardian if the worst happens.

I think I probably value bilingualism as much as anything. So if I was in op's situation, I'd be actively seeking out a good bilingual school for my dc. But as we want to keep them in the stream they're in now, looks like we're stuck here (I'm not complaining!!). Wouldn't fancy switching from Gaelic to Welsh myself, no matter how much my SIL (who is a welsh-medium teacher in S Wales and a native speaker from N Wales) tells me there's similarities!!

Believe me the differences are very superficial! Colours, some tangible nouns...thw differences are maybe as discernible to a normal person as German is to English.

Which sounded a bit wanky. Sorry.

Dont worry. Just wouldn't fancy trying to change dc over in the middle of school (and actually the total dis-joint between the Scottish and English/Welsh/N.Ireland education systems would probably be more of a worry. Very early in their education (nursery, p1 and p3 - so like yR and y2 we considered a move to London, but every borough we spoke to 1) would have made them all skip a year due to age, despite the amount of school time they'd had and 2) wouldn't give them help in English despite the fact that at that point all of their education had been in Gaelic, though there was help available from pretty much anywhere else in Europe or elsewhere. we stayed put. Most people probably thing just as well :)