So... Welsh. Why?

[gaelicsheep]

This is a thread to pick up a discussion that began on another thread about Welsh medium education. It isn't about Welsh medium. It's about compulsory Welsh to 16 in all other schools. It is hard as a non Welsh person to complain about this without sounding xenophobic so I am merely opening the floor if anyone is interested.

[wonderstuff]

People do speak welsh in mid Wales, in the area around Aberystwyth lots of people have welsh as first language

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

Can I just correct a few things I've seen on postings?

Dyfed isn't mid Wales, it's West Wales. It doesn't actually exist anymore, it's now Carmarthenshire. That said, it hasn't moved, it's still West Wales.

Now, here's something from Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Siaradwyr_y_Gymraeg_ym_Mhrif_Ardaloedd_Cymru.png

So basically the county of Carmarthenshire consists of a community where 1 out of 2 people can speak Welsh. The rest of the results are interesting too across the Principality.

When I go home with my "Saes" husband and son , my family never speak Welsh infront of them. As a guest it would be impolite. this might be why some people don't experience the Welsh language. If you start the conversation in English, most Welsh people wouldn't be so bloody minded as to speak over you in Welsh.

My driving instructor, BTW, was English, so if he'd have tried to carry out the test in Welsh then we'd probably be wrapped round a lamp post somewhere.

I'm generally quite shocked at the way people are talking about Wales as such a foreign, frightening place! If you went on holiday to Spain, you'd buy a packet of "Les Cadburies Fingeres" so why would a sign in the supermarket that said "Bacon" and underneath said "Cig Moch" be so scary! I'm genuinely perplexed...

And people worried about sending their kids to Welsh Uni, really? When I stayed with mates who'd gone to Cardiff, Ponty and Swansea half the folks there were English!

The Welsh generally, although patriotic, are a fairly easygoing nation. I live in Switzerland now, a country which embraces 3 languages equally across a country the same size as Wales, and still works hard to preserve the oldest language, Romansch spoken mainly in one Kanton. No one has a problem with it. Why do the English?

[gaelicsheep]

You know, this sounds really petty, I know it does, but for me it's the Welsh first thing. So today I was filling out forms for the GP, and Welsh comes first, English second. It's really confusing, I still haven't got used to it! In Scotland it's English first, Gaelic second - who'd have thought it made a difference, but it does! Same on the road signs, I still find seeing the Welsh names first really confusing. And you can blame the OS for that. The names on any map you care to use are the Anglicised names (not saying that's right) so when you are looking for one place and then the road sign jumps out at you with something totally different, I mean bearing no resemblance in some cases, that's really confusing! Again in the supermarket, Welsh first.

So yes, petty, but it all has an impact on the perception of a country. And somehow, you know, the Welshness of Wales is not common knowledge throughout the UK. That sounds incredibly stupid, I know, but it is true so I think it really comes as a surprise. The part of Scotland that I moved from was so full of English and American people that you could really feel very at home quite quickly without making any effort. I think moving to Wales is more akin to moving to Caithness or the Outer Hebrides - really really proper Scotland.

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, I'm just trying to explain what the country of Wales feels like to someone who previously knew very little about it. And I mean I knew nothing, I had never holidayed here or anything. And yes it sounds crazy moving here in that case, but I've explained the circumstances. Anyway that's my honest take on it.

[Dottiespots]

Yep your totally right there OP.....Welsh comes first but it has taken years and years of campaiging for the Welsh to have their own language come first and English second. And this is as it should be. And of course when you fill out forms and go to the supermarket, why wouldnt Welsh come first....its Wales. You say for you that its the Welsh thing....but....this is Wales. Its Wales! When you say it has an impact on the perception of the country....its Wales!. How do you think it should be seen....as England? It is Wales and we want people to know its Wales so that is the perception we want you to have. It is petty, you are saying that the thing you dont like about Wales is that fact that its Welsh. People do come here not realising what it is actually like to live here and have only experienced it on holiday. But you are entering another Country even though it is joined to England. And that is the thing that seems to bother you. Would you really be happy if there was no Welsh language cause that seems to be your main problem. Im sorry but it is a very arrogant attitued to say that we seem inward looking and unwelcoming. Maybe if that is how you perceive Wales then maybe it is your attitued that angers people here and makes us feel very unwelcoming. Why should we have to defend our Country. You really really need to try and get home back to England or wherever it is you would like to try living next because you are certainly very very unhappy living here.

[Dottiespots]

Gaelicsheep you really really do seem very unhappy living in Wales. Can you not possibly change your job or get another job? Your child will be fine moving again as children adapt very very easily but you seem very stressed and deeply unhappy and surely staying in Wales is not worth all this unhappiness.

[gaelicsheep]

Oh Dottiespots you're really taking quite unnecessary offence at an incomer speaking honestly about the country. I thought I made it clear how much of a small thing it is. I was just saying, as I have every right to do. I'm not going to bother posting any more on this thread because it seems I am unable to be honest without causing offence, even over something so minor.

[gaelicsheep]

I also think you were quite unnecessarily personal at the end of your diatribe towards me, so an apology would not go amiss. I really don't see how anyone could take offence - why so defensive? Some people have no choice but to go where the work is you know. Or would you prefer Wales was just a place for hardcore Welsh nationalists, to hell with the economy? I was starting to come around to the way things are after speaking to so many nice, reasonable people on this thread. I hope they represent the majority.

[gaelicsheep]

And finally - oh God you've annoyed me - where did I say I didn't like it? Wally asked why Wales seems foreign, I replied with my take on it. I said I find it confusing seeing another language first, that it takes some getting used to, I even expressed surprise that the order makes a difference. I thought I was being lighthearted. I really fail to see how anyone could take offence at that.

[Tigresswoods]

It feels like so much has changed in Wales with regard to the language. I grew up in S Wales & spent all my school years there. My parents are both English.

At that time there was no compulsory Welsh, all we did was learn the National Anthem & a bit of basics like counting in junior school.

Now I see on FB my school friends are sending their children to welsh speaking schools! I'm not sure how I feel about it but I left Wales at 19 to go to uni & never returned so had I learned welsh I would feel it was was a waste if my time.

I don't recall speaking welsh being important in the 80's & 90's & have no recollection of my friends' parents of grandparents speaking it.

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

Tigress if you grew up in Wales in the 80's and 90's there would have been some compulsory Welsh in school, no? The only difference was you weren't forced to take a language qualification. I went to an English speaking school and we certainly did Welsh from primary up to the age of 14 as a lesson.

And the supermarket and road signs have always been Welsh to my knowledge, I'm 42 btw.

At my cousins school her reception class this year has 5 Polish kids, straight into Welsh from Polish. When my cousin tried to explain to the parents that there was no formal English taught they didn't care. They has heard good things about the school and wanted their kids there. They said the English would come later.

[frosch]

gaelicsheep I don't think Dottiespots has been personal nor defensive. Neither does she owe you an apology. Most of your posts on this thread have been rather negative and, as I said before, whilst I don't believe you are anti-Welsh nor anti-Wales, when you are living in a country where you appear to be desperately unhappy, it is not unreasonable that other posters will suggest that you move elsewhere! Many posters have responded to your posts positively, why not focus on that? Practically speaking, if a move is out of the question then you need to start dealing with the anger and isolation that you seem to be experiencing. Can you pick one thing about living in Wales that you like or enjoy?

[gaelicsheep]

This is what I found personal: " You really really need to try and get home back to England or wherever it is you would like to try living next".
I WAS feeling happier. DH and I have made some decisions about our house up north and I had been persuaded of the benefits of Welsh at school, as I said earlier. I was just trying to explain why Wales does feel foreign, probably not just to me, as a point of interest nothing more. I think it's interesting how perception changes according to the order of languages. I wish I hadn't. Incidentally only the NHS forms were bilingual. All other paperwork and notices at the GPs are in English because that is what people speak here.

[frosch]

I think it's the way it's read; I read that as a pragmatic suggestion, not as having a go. I've been told to 'get back over the bridge when you come from'. Now that IS being rude! It is a lifestyle choice for some people; I lived in 6 different Welsh villages before I was 18 because that was the attitude of my parents. "Where shall we try next" was a regular conversation You say you WERE feeling happier, can you get back to that feeling? What you're experiencing is a mild culture shock. I've been there myself and that fact that I can get Pobl Y Cwm and S4C on the TV here helps enormously!

[gaelicsheep]

I simply object to any comment I make being blamed on me being homesick rather a legitimate observation. I might be homesick but I still have valid opinions. I'm currently peed off with DS's school over the overuse of the ORT Biff and Chip scheme. That's not because I hate Wales, that's because I hate ORT! And I find it confusing having to skip past Welsh first on official forms and road signs as I bet did the majority of Welsh people before they got used to it. I'm really not sure why that's controversial or why it suggests anger and unhappiness!

[frosch]

as I bet did the majority of Welsh people before they got used to it

er, no. Welsh people grew up with it. It's normal.

Sure, be angry with ORT Biff and Chip scheme, that's perfectly valid. As an angry ORT Biff and Chip thread, it sure is negative about Wales!

[gaelicsheep]

"Welsh comes first but it has taken years and years of campaiging for the Welsh to have their own language come first and English second."

This suggests it is something relatively recent, and I'd be surprised if people didn't find it confusing for a while.

[Jojobump1986]

Electricity is 'relatively recent' if you look at the whole of human history! Those of us who grew up with bilingual signs etc. just identify the relevant information from a glance. It's interesting that the Welsh doesn't come first on signs in some areas. It was like that where I grew up & we always felt like we were in Wales 'proper' when we drove somewhere & started seeing them with Welsh first!

It does take a while to get used to seeing different languages. I know what you mean about it being confusing. I was completely befuddled by the road signs on a family holiday to Greece once! It will eventually seem second nature though.

Am I the only person in the world who actually likes the ORT books?! You can get them yng gymraeg too!

[gaelicsheep]

The best thing is when you've got used to looking below Welsh to the English, and then it suddenly changes! I'm used to bilingual from Scotland, that doesn't confuse me per se.

[gaelicsheep]

Ah yes, one good thing about Wales. Well I'm alot closer to my mum in the north west of England who is currently finding out if her cancer has metastasised.

I've had enough of this thread now. See you around.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Good luck Gaelic. All the best to your mum x

[gaelicsheep]

Thank you Ariel.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Dottie, I think she knew all you were saying so vehemently. She was simply trying to explain the unexpectedness of it all.

[greenhill]

Good luck with your mum gaelicsheep

[Tigresswoods]

WallyBanters not at my school! We were close to the border... I wonder if that made a difference? As I saw we did basic stuff in Junior school but it was just that. Maybe they got away with it as we did the National Anthem every spring.

I remember one day a week we had to say Good Morning in Welsh in Assembly.

Meh.

[LiegeAndLief]

Slight tangent not about Welsh but gaelicsheep I don't think you need to worry about dual science. I did dual science GCSE, went on to do science A-levels, a science degree and am now a scientist.