So... Welsh. Why?

[gaelicsheep]

This is a thread to pick up a discussion that began on another thread about Welsh medium education. It isn't about Welsh medium. It's about compulsory Welsh to 16 in all other schools. It is hard as a non Welsh person to complain about this without sounding xenophobic so I am merely opening the floor if anyone is interested.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

I don't think she is :)

[gaelicsheep]

No probably she wasn't. I probably need a MN break.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

It's a strange place sometimes, is it not? I've suggested on another thread setting up a rival site called Perplexednet.com. There were several takers.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Sorry, that would be www.nonplussednet.com

[MrSlant]

I just have to come on really to a) Say I see where you are coming from completely, it's an interesting debate and I feel in some places things are going a little bit too far in the opposite direction from the 'Welsh not', I hope it will come to a happier medium soon. Some children I think are failed by a system where they have to be bilingual, some children are only going to thrive in one language. OTOH I don't see any harm in Welsh being compulsory at GCSE, it can be taken as a foreign language, similar to French/Spanish as well as the one my children will do which is more akin to English Lit (do they even still do lit/lang as separate GCSE's, I really need to find out).

My b) is just to point out that Welsh is spoken as a main language in a lot more places than people realise. DH comes from a family where his parents are both from different areas of south Wales and only ever speak Welsh. DH is first language and we live in a (Southern) area where it is commonly spoken in the pub/supermarket/at work etc. I work in the NHS and I've learned because I like to be able to book patients in in their own language and speak to them as well as I can. Older people often lose their English if it is the second language and it is hard to treat someone who doesn't understand you!

My DC's go to Welsh medium schools but we have opted for them to do science/maths in English which seems a good compromise to me and they look like they will be science based later in life. Plus as KateM linked, there is proof that learning another language enhances your ability to learn many other things.

[gaelicsheep]

Busy scouring the web for suitable jobs back home, as indeed if I don't like Wales I should leave, and realising how specific my skill set is . Nonplussednet.com indeed! scuppered.com and paintedmyselfinacorner.com would apply equally.

[gaelicsheep]

Thanks for your perspective MrSlant. The was at Ariel, just thought I should clarify.

[MrSlant]

[Heavywheezing]

Well, the GCSE rate compared to England is poorer as is the health service but that could be a whole other discussion.

As someone who was educated in Wales, and started teacher training in Wales, I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of diverting money that could be spent elsewhere on better resources or whatever.

I wonder how much money it cost translating everything, roadsigns, leaflets etc

I live in England now and I'm happier for my children to be better educated in England. Schools and education are more rigous here, perhaps the decline in standards is because of the Welsh language, that they are so worried preserving this language that they have taken their eye off the ball and let England get further ahead.

Certain parts of Cardiff speak Welsh, go to Pontcanna and see. I think Welsh medium schools in Cardiff are over subscribed and it's the Welsh equivelent of a grammar education but with popularity means falling standards.

[hippo123]

Hi garlicsheep, I've just skimmed though this thread so sorry if I have missed something. Is the main issue that kids in Wales have to study welsh though to gcse level (if that's true - probably is in state education I should think)? Or do you have other concerns as well?
At gcse level I believe kids have the choice of taking it as an second language option. If they attend a bilingual or English medium school this shouldn't prove to much of a problem for them, no more than english kids in England taking French / German. I think they can still take the sciences as single subjects in most schools if bright enough.
It sounds like you live in a very English speaking part of wales so I'm strugglling to see what your issue is to be honest. Your son may have to ask to go to the toilet in welsh but I don't see how that's a bad thing? My kids have no choice but to go to a Welsh medium school as we're in Gwynedd. My just turned 6 year old is fleunt and I think his school is fantastic. We do however do lots of reading in English at home as being English ourselves I feel that's important as well, they don't normally start leaning English until 7 here, but then quickly pick it up.
The way I see it my kids will be able to take an active part in their very welsh speaking community. Around here you need welsh in 95% of cases to apply for jobs in the nhs, council, shops, cafes, bars etc. I don't see how having a Welsh medium education can be of any disadvantage to them even if they later chose to study / live in England / anywhere else in the world.
As a parent though I sympathsie to some extent with you. I found it really hard to understand the point of it all and initially felt my kids were at a disadvantage as they concentrated so much on getting ds welsh up to scratch in the first year of primary school. I also feel, and still do to some degree, an outsider. But that's my problem and nobody else's, after all i am an outsider. Taking welsh classes myself has helped. I can just about keep up with my ds reading books and people appreciate I'm making the effort. Overall I am now so proud of my bilingual children. It's always been me that has had the issues with it, not the kids. They just adapt.

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

I know you might not want to go into it here Gaelic as it's not the right forum. Does sound as if you need to speak to someone about your unhappiness at your situation.

Hope you can sort it out. I've been lucky to feel patriotism, but never homesickness so I wish you all the best.

[gaelicsheep]

hippo - it was never meant to be about what I think at all! I don't know what I think about Wales, Welsh, anything any more. I was far more interested in finding out what others thought, but somehow it kept coming back to me, sometimes quite rudely it must be said.

I think I'm truly ambivalent. I'm proud of what DS is achieving with Welsh on top of the other challenges he has faced. I am very glad to try and learn how to pronounce local placenames and I nearly have it cracked. I personally have no wish to learn Welsh as I've far too much else on my plate with my job. As long as doing Welsh in secondary doesn't hinder DS I probably won't mind it. I feel no real love or affinity for where we are living, but were we over the border I suspect I'd still feel the same. So, as I said at the very beginning I am on the fence, willing and able to be persuaded of the benefits of Welsh, but wishing I wasn't here.

[hippo123]

I think if your wishing your wasn't here then that's your answer. I love being here. You get seen in a&e within an hour (as oppose to 4 hours where I'm from in England), I can ring up my doctors and get an appointment for the same day, the welsh medium primary school my children attend has been rated as excellent. We have a wide choice of good secondary schools, including one English medium one should we wish. Above all we live in a place which has a great community feel, has beaches, lakes, mountains etc on our doorstep, low crime levels, my kids can play out safely, loads of outdoor activities available nearby, bike paths, water sports , mountaineering, climbing etc. what's not to love? Learning welsh at secondary level won't do your son anymore harm than learning any other language, I fail to see how it can be a negative thing. Sometimes the grass seems greener on the other side?

[Viviennemary]

Will forcing Welsh lessons on reluctant children really help. I can see why people don't think this is a good idea. But I suppose if your DC's wish to live in Wales when they grow up then it will be a good idea to be able to speak Welsh.

[gaelicsheep]

hippo - where you are now sounds like where I can from

[gaelicsheep]

came from

[hippo123]

I don't think the majority of children are reluctant, at least at primary level. It's the parents, myself included, that seem to have the issue with it. Kids adapt and pick up other languages easily. England is way behing other countries in terms of speaking other languages. Loads of countries introduce other languages at an early age with no problems.

[hippo123]

Just outside Caernarfon gaelicsheep.

[gaelicsheep]

I think perhaps if I felt the education was any good in other ways I'd be less bothered. But I believe there are some quite significant problems. But as Miss Annersley pointed out upthread, I am doomed forever to worry about this, no matter where I am!

[gaelicsheep]

Sounds very nice. DH hates it here with a passion, so I have guilt as well.

[hippo123]

Perhaps it's more an issue with your sons particular school then the welsh / English thing? My ds (6) has been to 2 local schools, due to moving a few miles, both have been rated excellent, yet the new school ds is currently in is IMO far better than the other one (and far more torrent of other faiths / cultures / English). maybe have a look around other schools?

[gaelicsheep]

Actually despite how it might sound I'm quite happy with his school and wouldn't want to move him. I think it's all about me and DH, DH not liking the area, me feeling I dragged him here under false pretences, certain things having not quite worked out with the job as I hoped, me feeling quite overwhelmed and scared by the challenges I'm being faced with at work. Unhappy me, even more unhappy DH who loved it where we were before, no way back. DS and DD getting on just fine, as you said.
Really not Wales' fault at all as Ariel rightly pointed out, but then I never said it was. And then I could be happy as anything and still have many doubts about education policy!
The thing is we believed (wrongly it turns out) that the move here could be temporary, so we never really thought about long term implications of living in Wales.

[hippo123]

Now we're getting there gaelicsheep. As I think you know these are the issues you need to address.

[gaelicsheep]

Yes, but it still doesn't stop me being genuinely interested in whether compulsory Welsh education to 16, throughout Wales, is the right thing! I have heard things that persuade me that it probably is, and what someone - sorry I can't find it now - pointed out about conversational Welsh helping cement the formal learning made sense too.

[sashh]

Who speaks Welsh in the world other than the Welsh?

Argentinians