my child reads and write at top level, but her Phonics group is not!!!

[B4r4joon]

My daughter is a very bright child at Y1...she is reading and writing very well...however when it came to grouping them, she is not been located in the top group in Phonics, although she reads the same level and writes the same as those children on the top group. This is very confusing for her amd me, as I dont understand on what basis this happened. She can be at times shy and she observes her peers very well and learn from them as she is bi-lingual. In the gropu she is in now, the difference between the level she reads and the level of some other children is huge...perhaps 7 colour reading band!!!

This has affecte dmy childs confidence as she thinks she hasnt been good enough, or why she is reading the same book as her reading partner, and he/she is in another group. ALl confusing for me, I am gonna talk to the teacher tomorrow, and I dont know how to say it. i dont want to convey that I dont trust their judgment, but this is gonna hold my child back and crashes her confidence, as the groups are gonna stay the same until the end of teh year! Can I ask the teacher to move my child to the other group? Is Phonics the knowledge that they learn to apply to their writing and reading, so how can she read and write higher than her phonics knowledge? She is already reading sounds that she has not been officially taught, by working it out on herself....

That's part of the reason why I'm so pleased with mam29's post, because generalisations don't get this conversation anywhere.

mam29's SS sounds very much like a number of the children I work with. I only have to look at their primary files (or know which school they have come from) to know that their poor reading skills are largely a result of how they were taught...

it's impossible to tell how many kids who struggle to learn to read have a physical reason.

which is what I meant by The problem with the 20% of children who are being failed is there is no way to identify which child is going to struggle and which child isn't until it happens Indigo. Teacher and parents can't predict which child will succeed and which will fail with any degree of certainty ...and yes those early good readers can be among the 20%

It's specialist knowledge that I had not heard of before I had children.

We've all had to learn it once we had children in the 'system'. It's not hard. Every profession, hobby, sport etc. has its own specialist vocabulary.

Teacher and parents can't predict which child will succeed and which will fail - no teachers and parents can't - but other people (like Dr Levinson) can.

Dr Levinson's medical centre

Of course he's only one of many people who can tell who's going to have dyslexia before they fail......

But. Maizie, mam29 seems to be suggesting that there is another child of whom she knows whose mother is delighted with the education that her child is getting. In a sense that doesn't tell us much. (The other mother might be delighted that her child cant' read either.) But let's suppose that the other child is coming along nicely. Mam29 seems to be suggesting that a number of children are getting the same or a similar education and some are turning out well and others are turning out badly. That makes sense to me.

Jargon such as 'split digraphs' from a thread the other day for a start. Would you have a problem with the jargon of "equation" in maths?

Foundation Stage - isn't jargon it's a name just like "IWipeArses" It's called Foundation because everything builds upon it.
Phonics - is a subject just like History or Art
Phase 1-6 Letters and Sounds - is a Government publication
book bands - I suppose they could call them book groups but they went for both words starting with the same letter
ORT - is the name of a published reading scheme

Indigo what do you think is the realistic possibility of Dr Levinson or people like him testing every child in the UK and of course there is the 5% they can't identify ...

You don't need to test the ones that are doing well, only the 20% which is not.

mrz - With a neurologist I recently tested 15% of a school who were having difficulties learning to read.

All of them had cerebellum and eyesight problems.

The tests we did were easy to administer. There is no reason at all why SENCOs or others couldn't be trained in how to do the 15 minute test we did.

As I said earlier not all those early readers continue to read well and some end up as part of the 20% statistic learnandsay.

But you don't start testing until the children show reading problems. You did ask a straw man question about testing every child in the UK. Depending on the test, I'm sure it's possible. The phonics screening check is going to test every child (of a particular age/stage) in the UK.

But it's not necessary.

"As far as I'm concerned any primary parent who believes that it's the school's job to teach and does the minimum as a result gets what they deserve. And if their children turn out drug dealers on convicts as a result then they've only got themselves to blame."

That's a bit harsh. It is the schools job to teach the children regardless of what support they get at home. If a child does not get the support at home it is not that child's fault and the schools have a duty to make sure all children learn not just the ones who have supportive parents.

I'm not sure how it explains our situation as we achieve between 92-96% level 4s or above for reading and many of those displayed early reading difficulties.

The test we did was type of thing.....

I have no idea how you do it. But I should imagine that you have a head who's in control of the school. I have heard of some schools where children seem to be allowed to assault both each other and the staff.

I don't think any school "allows" children to assault other children or staff but assaults happen ...I've been bitten, kicked and punched plenty of times of the years.

I think some pupils are not interested in learning anything, and are only at school because the law requires them to be there. Some of these children are extremely disruptive and I don't think the teaching methodology makes an iota of difference to that. How does a head deal with these children? I know it's illegal, but it has been reported that heads are sending children home with notices not to return to school, effectively excluding them. I would be one of those heads. Somebody told me about a head who supplied violent children with plimsolls to throw at staff because when they threw their school shoes too many people got hurt. That is a policy which condones assault. I'm certain that order is required in a school before anything can be taught regardless of the methodology being used.

If only it were that simple learnandsay ...I dare say some schools would be empty. Fortunately there are laws that prevent heads sending children home with notice not to return.

We have excluded one very troubled child as a last resort to try and get him the help he needed in the last 20 years

My DC school have a sanction room to send kids to if they misbehave.

Seems to be working well so far...

mrz, I'm aware of what they all mean now, but they aren't terms one comes across in daily life until your child enters the current system.
We didn't have Foundation Stage when I was a child, I was aware they now had Nursery and Reception, but half the material from school comes with FS1 and FS2. Unnecessarily complicated imo. Having learnt more about the current teaching of reading I can see how it works, but I can only imagine how esoteric it must seem to many parents.

maizieD, school is pretty universal in this country, hardly a minority interest.

iwipe, it's probably not necessary to give the different age-groups fancy names. The civil service could just refer to the children by age group. I think in the old days they did do that, or at least by school year. As far as the terminology of phonics goes, is it necessary for parents to know it? I think that depends on how good the teachers that their children have are at speaking in laymen's terms. Some professionals are hopeless at speaking in laymen's terms and, unless they're spouting jargon, seem to feel that they're somehow not doing their jobs properly. (Or maybe they are simply devoid of imagination. Who knows?) Is it possible to get the points across without all the jargon? Yes. Is it likely to happen? Sometimes not.

Well my school wouldn't mention Letters & Sounds or those stupid phases or ORT or book bands or split digraphs or FS1 or indeed FS2

Bit of update for you guys

1stly I was mistake there is 5phonics groups in the school but covers reception to year 3 with coupel struggling year 4s so not upper keystage 2, dident get opportunity to ask what they do wasent relevent.

2nd part about my dd is like ops problem but in reverse yes odd I know.

dd passed phonics test year 1 so in old school was in top phonics group with 15others and taught by class teacher.

shes been assessed in new school and they say shes very good and phonics is in top group so some year 2s and 3s combined maybe 1 or 2 year 4s.

But shes weak at reading.

old teacher said was reading comprension new teacher says fluency and confidence.

Shes starting in jan 1 to 1 intervention with computer programme and ta called rapid read. Anyone heard of this?

We reading every night at home band 6 so variety of publishers ginn level 5, ort 7 , some others and bug club.
We also doing online bug club. I would say her readings ok shes just lacking confidence so glad new school have action plan and not like old school fobbing me off saying everythings fine, butt out dont interfere we dont trust parents or want you to know anything approach.

Also spellings although spelling phonetically shes getting some simple words wrong so shes in small intevention group with few other kids and ta think was called snappy words on how to use phonics and improve spelling.

One dd older freinds at old school was told shes year behind on reading and writing at parents evening other month so think it does happen and she has no special needs infact very similar to mine lacking confidence .My dd felt very upset she was so much lower reading levels and groups compared to many of younger peers in same year group.

As for stepson/

attack on teacher was he scratched her during a row.
he was forver disrupting the class, bored, not trying acting the clown.
His mum of course blamed the teacher and the school itself.

of course hes now year 10 so been 4years since he was at that primary.

Then randomly was talking to cousin other week.

I had forgotton she had lived same town as stepson.

co-incidentally has a stepson slightly different situation to me.

Not sure what happened with his mother think she has issues and gave away custody to childs father.

He had moved a couple of schools when he lived with his mum
then moved in with his dad and my cousin and they moved least 4times so think hes on primary school no 5 or 6even!

Shes implied hes struggling and behind but when i mentioned stepsons old school she talked fondly of it and said it was good but everyone has diffrent priorities and different version of good yet i guess shes been to afew to make fair comparision plus her stepson wasent there long.

As it wales cant even give you any sats for how the school performs.

Interesting to note wales is behind england in educational standards. I grew up in wales went school there and dident like 2/3schools I went to.They dont have huge range of choice we get in more urban areas.

I dont know why in some schools some kids get failed and others do well.I ask my self the question as many of dds freind doing well there but sadly mine dident and since leaving heard more and more stories about the ones who are struggling. maybe parents dont like to talk about it so the problems of poor literacy remain hidden taboo and never openly discussed.

A new girl started from canada in september she hadent done phonics but could read but required phonics intervention. yet her reading level was quite high and she had done 1less school year than uk as no reception.

Maybe diffrerent schools do suit diffrent personalitys.

I just thourght I clarify extra detail stepson

his eyesights fine
educational phcholgist says hes not mad attention seeking maybe.
hes not got adhd, dyelexia or any type of autism.

hes been in and out anger management sessions few times think it was ta going through techniques in primary to calm himself down.

The attack on teacher in primary i think was genuine accident gone too far.he did have history of fighting, rowing with other kids and dident appear to have many close freinds.

he lived with his mum and step dad whos been there since he was 3.
his elder half siblings are teen mums , live elsewhere and dident go great academically either.

His mum and step father both work so hes kind of only child so dont see not enough attention being problem.

we have tried to do things with him in time we had him

he has no patiance
does not try
hes no interest in learning or reading

we come to conclusion there so reason why he couldent do better he just cant be bothered and worry at year 10 hes running out o time and will regret in in future.

I have 3kids 1school age and last school had lots homework and often used to hear stressed out mums trying to fit everyones homework in.

Every prospectus, open day or website for schools now seems to include something called home school contract which detemines behaviour and agreement to complete homework but know some parents never do and there doest appear to be any consequences for parents who cant be bothered only things schools orry about is attendance and lateness.

I agree jargon of phnonics phenomes, grenphones, split ee, time words do make it seem complex.

Me and oh learnt through look at say he was 70s child me 80s.

I did leave infants bit behind in maths but could read and write ok by year 3.

When we looked round at schools for our eldest in 2009 she started 2010 one school proudly states how they did jolly phonics like it was something special.

Also people mention phonics and synethetic phonics which is best.

Im not sure how many different phonics programmes there are readwrite and jolly phonics only ones know off top of my head.

Dont they say girls and boy learn differently with boys being more auditry so sounds ie phonics maybe best approach and girls more visual.
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