How do you reply to this? Private school hatred.

[Elec]

Ds goes to swimming, in the class is another boy who he likes. I was chatting to this boy's mum, who I have not spoken to before. She asks me what school ds is at so I tell her. It's a private school and she replied - I don't agree with private schools.

What should I have said? I cannot believe how socially acceptable this sort of prejudice is, she just said it in earshot of plenty of other people so clearly she didn't mind who heard.

I imagine if this had been the other way round and I asked her what school her ds went to and then said, well I don't agree with state schools (not my view obv!) that she would have had a go at me and probably so would people overhearing!

The drivers of individual superior academic achievement are multiple. Just some of the ones commonly cited are:

• higher IQ
• higher socio-economic status
• higher education of the mother (or primary carer)
• better teaching
• better school facilities
• smaller class sizes
• selection/streaming/setting
• good discipline
• healthy lifestyle (nutrition/sleep/sports etc)

tethers you make a good point about whether it is the school or the child's background.

Again, I suspect it's a mixture of the two. The girls at the grammar will, for the most part be as middle class as the girls at DD's school. They will have supportive parents (or they couldn't have got in). So clearly DD's school is offering a huge uplift to some of its girls.

I do think that great teachers and motivated pupils make a good combination. DD does art at an art school and music at a conservatoire. Frankly, my heart lifts with joy every time I drop her off and pick her up - it is no hardship - because the sheer joy of learning and achievement shines out of the classrooms. Surely the same is true of schools.

tethersend - "Do you think that the high achieving private schools would still out-perform state schools if the intake of both were mixed up/homogenised?"

There lies the issue. Statements about how the private sector outperforms state lack what any semi-sensible statistical study generally has: a control group. Since the intakes are different, obviously you would expect the results to be different.

Something I also think is crucial is that the intake is not only selected at the starting point, but also along the years (i.e. the less academic are being weeded out of the top private as time goes on). So really, if you select at the start, and your bottom performers end up leaving, really BFD that the endgame stats show you are ?outperforming?.

Full disclosure: my DCs are not yet of secondary age and I am totally undecided on the issue. But I still find the "superior" argument very weak.

seeker it outperforms the GS (or comes within spitting distance) in terms of the % of pupils getting 5 GCSEs including english and maths and the % of As and A*s attained.

It really does punch above its weight results-wise.

alejandro I think the cohort at DD's school will be very similar to the cohort at the local grammar, in terms of socio economic make up and levels of parental support. The avergae intelligence will be greater at the GS.

And yet...

seeker and wordfactory, we'd need to see the school results, otherwise the "our school out performs the other school" is just a I said this/she said that back and forth. Can we see the comparative published results?

wordfactory - do you think that the girls at your DD's school are, on average, getting more in the way of parental top up than the girls at the grammar school? I spend 5 terms at a grammar school at the beginning of my secondary school years. It was the first and last time I went to a state school and the average family was a lot less flush than the average family at the other schools I attended, hence fewer trips abroad, fewer theatre visits, fewer books... less everything, really.

Having lots of stuff doesn't necessarily mean you'll do well. It depends what you do with it!!

Seeker, I am always frustrated on these threads when you are others are unwilling to waiver in your certainty that parents who pay do so to avoid state school children or to give their own children some sort of advantage in society.

I have no issue with state schools and have taught in them for many years. I have no issue with state school pupils as I am well aware, certainly where I live, that the vast majority are highly motivated and well behaved.

I genuinely, hand on heart pay for all the extras they get on top. The overall experience if you like. I have no doubt that they will come out with similar results than if they had gone to our local high achieving state school. However, whilst they may have enjoyed it overall, they would not have loved every day quite as much. The facilities and enrichment activities available are amazing. I pay for their access to these. It is a high achieving school but then so are our state schools. I pay for the day to day experience. I absolutely do not pay to give them a leg up or any social advantage because, to my mind, there is none from attending a large day school in an urban area where all the kids locally are affluent and reasonably privileged anyway.

wordfactory - I didn't say there weren't specific examples to the contrary, and if anything the fact that I believe the "superiority" argument to be very weak doesn't mean that I believe there is equivalence.

But looking at London (sorry, that's all I know), seems like the top grammars are definitely neck and neck with the top privates. And I would say that despite parental support being present in both places (as you said, tough to get into a GS without it, and that's actually another problem with grammars if you asked me), I wouldn't quite say that the demos are exactly comparable in both places. Close, but certainly not the same.

learn I'd really rather not say which school DD attends.

But the stats for both schools are generally 100% 5GCSEs (including english and maths) and 70% A and A*s.

Exactly, alejandro.

What's worrying is that it's not just one or two posters who think this- the current government seems hell-bent on replicating a generic 'private school' model as if it will magically improve outcomes for all children.

I guess you could pick similar schools to the ones that you're discussing then and link to their stats instead. But there's no pint in having a statistical argument without any statistics.

Lovingthecoast- I really really haven't said that! Have you mistaken me for someone else?

"seeker it outperforms the GS (or comes within spitting distance) in terms of the % of pupils getting 5 GCSEs including english and maths and the % of As and A*s attained.

It really does punch above its weight results-wise."

And so it should- it's selective! Most grammar school, I believe, get pushing 90%-95% A*-C. When you get to that sort of level, discussing outperforming becomes a bit meaningless.

Bonsoir I don't know bout top up and average wealth of the grammar school to be honest. It's a middle class area on the train line to the city, so quite wealthy...but I really couldn't say hand on heart.

To be honest I don't know the circumstances of all DD's school friends' parents either. Some pretty affluent indeed. Some less so (these things being relative).

Yes but seeker DD's school is not remotely as selective as the grammar school. The academic levels are far more mixed.

There are girls in DD's school who failed to get into the grammar .

So really their results should be way higher than ours, or ours should be way lower, most probably.

tethersend - don't distort! The government is happy to guarantee better outcomes, but only for the first two children. ;)

DS school is a different thing entirely.

It is soooo selective that if it didn't get superlative results you really would wonder what the hell they were doing all day ...

That is rude. However, it may not have been intended to come out quite that way. I have a dear friend who does the same in the opposite direction. Her DS goes to a very exclusive private school and mine go to her catchment state primary. She often starts conversations about how standards are slipping at the (state) school, how shocking it is how little sport is on the state curriculum, aren't I concerned etc. I am always at a bit of a loss for what to say. I would never want to tell her my views on her DS's school

However, since she is an old friend and has shown me incredible kindness in times of need, I tend to try to let it wash over me. If you are secure in your own decision, it needn't bother you.

That would piss me off pendulum! You must be a patient woman!

Is socially inept/rude to comment on others' choices, but as others say, people do.

On the "my child needs extra stretching/help/was bullied/is sensitive" thing seeker has described, think people are just (ineptly) trying to head off disapproval with what they think is a more socially acceptable justification than "we have the money to choose and like X private school best".

"Yes but seeker DD's school is not remotely as selective as the grammar school. The academic levels are far more mixed."

But I would imagine incredibly selective in other ways? With parents like me? My poor ds at his non selective school has his nose so firmly attached to the grindstone that he hasn't seen daylight for the past 7 weeks!

The way this thread has rumbled on all day makes it quite clear that there is no point in saying anything beyond 'it suits us'. There is no comeback to that.

I agree with just asking 'why' which is what I would do if someone said they ddn;t agree with reating meat whenI had ordered a steak, or was botle feeding a baby etc, and you dont express an opinion youself, just keep asking polite questions with an amused half-smile until she feels like a complete idiot, and realises she has made a fool of her herself whilst you were inwardly laughing at her.