How do you argue with a Head?

[RationalBrain]

No, its not a riddle, its a genuine question! In fact the question should be can you even argue with a Head?

In a nutshell, our DD has food allergies, started school lunches under the assurance procedures were robust, they take allergies seriously etc etc. First day, she was given something with her allergen in (thankfully didn't react). Since then we have been seeking more information to confirm it did have the allergen in, which we now have.

So emailed the Head very politely to ask about procedures, not robust enough (not identifying DD as a child who needs a special diet) etc. Head point blank refuses to acknowledge that DD ate the offending item, or that the procedures are in any way deficient. ("there is no way the staff would have served her that" - well, they did!)

So what do I do now? Can I argue with a Head? I'm assuming her word is law, and the reason this school doesn't have any problems with breaches of procedures is that she refuses to accept they have happened. Next time, a child could be hospitalised or worse. Apart from DD's word (which is 100% reliable in this case), I have no proof though.

I am at a loss. And also a bit concerned for DD's future at the school if we get earmarked as 'troublemakers'. (heaven forbid we are concerned that they could have killed her ).

Thanks mrstruper and youarewinning. Nice to have some rational comment!

You are right about the school. I think I am being naive. Their interests and mine are not aligned. Shame it's only taken 4 weeks to come to that conclusion.

No, dd has dairy free chocolate at home, and had only been reassured by me that morning that the school were totally checking everything and she could totally trust them (as she was petrified). So she would have assumed it was ok. She did have to tell them on other days she wasn't allowed cheese, or cake with icing on, as she is used to not having those things.

Well, now we have actual proof that policies weren't even thought about let alone followed, we should have a lot of leverage to suggest effective policies to be instigated for the future (not only in the canteen, but in the classroom as well). I'm still pretty sceptical though, as if the head doesn't think this is important, no amount of policy making will affect the culture of how this is treated.

yes...school culture....I couldn't believe it....take your experience as a early insight in to what can be wrong with our schools. Lower your expectations (I certainly had to)......your daughter is just another head to count..sad but true...at least she has a mummy who is looking out for her...good luck

Ah sorry. Should have read more closely.

Maybe pack lunches are the way to go.

Perhaps HE

Blimey mrz, you're like a troll without the disguise

Blimey RationalBrain it was a serious suggestion

The problem is, surely, that the school just doesn't have robust enough systems in place. That is the school's problem and hardly the OP's.

Many, many other schools manage this. It would hardly fill me with confidence either.

I don't understand the suggestion of HE?

The Op doesn't trust the school to care for her daughter and believes the head has lied about what her daughter has eaten ... would you want your child to return?

Haven't we all had issues in our child's school where you feel trust has been lost? I know I have more than once. Surely the thing to do is build trust and resolve issues rather than walk away from them.

Can all issues be resolved?

May I just ask, as I don't have experience of allergies/food intolerances, so I'm genuinely interested. If you are allergic, how can you not have an allergic reaction to your allergen? Doesn't that mean you're not allergic isn't that more of a food intolerance? Not having a go, just don't really get it. However, whatever the issue is, you shouldn't feel you can't have a rational convo iwth the head.

Can I ask a question, which is slightly (only slightly) off topic? Why does everyone automatically think packed lunches would be safer? My dd has a severe nut allergy. She has reacted to foods that contain "traces of nuts" and to foods labelled "not suitable for nut allergy sufferers due to manufacturing methods". She had a reaction when she ate out of a bowl that had been washed up at the same time as a saucepan containing satay sauce. Things have set her off that nobody who doesn't have a nut allergic child would think for a moment would be a risk. I think she has a much greater chance of coming into contact with an allergen if she is sitting on a table with people having packed lunches than if she had school dinners which are guaranteed nut free. Kids will bring all sorts of food into school, much of which will be a real risk to my dd. Food crumbs scatter, kids eat their lunches then wipe their hands on the table and my dd's food or hands could be contaminated easily. My dd's not at school now, but when she is, provided the system is adequately set up, my gut feeling is that school dinners will be much safer.

Not always. Sometimes parties have to agree to disagree.

However in a situation like this it should be. Children with food allergies are successfully catered for in plenty of schools. The catering sounds fine but the distribution has to be looked at and a system put in place that is practical but also reassures the parents.

I can't imagine for a minute the school wouldn't want to do that.

Sorry I was replying to mrz.

AvonCallingBarksdale Thu 11-Oct-12 21:53:09
May I just ask, as I don't have experience of allergies/food intolerances, so I'm genuinely interested. If you are allergic, how can you not have an allergic reaction to your allergen? Doesn't that mean you're not allergic isn't that more of a food intolerance? Not having a go, just don't really get it. However, whatever the issue is, you shouldn't feel you can't have a rational convo iwth the head.

I'll try and explain, I'm not an expert but have an allergic child with epi-pen.

Allergens are proteins - when they enter the body it see's it as a foreign/ threatening thinhg and produces antihistmines (its a mast cell and basophil reaction). Things attach themselves to each other and this response is what causes the reaction. Can be simply a hive (yep just the 1!), full body hives, swelling to face,lips, extremities and/or full systematic response which makes throat swell, stomach cramp, and shock which requires adrenaline.

There are 2 types of allergy. IgE mediated and non-IgE mediated. IgE mediated are the ones we often see as immediate (eg peanut allergy most think of when thinking of anaphylaxis). Other common allergens for IgE mediated allergy are milk (cows milk protein), egg, fish, treenuts, celery.
Non IgE mediated allergies usually take longer for the reaction to occur. From 2-72 hours after the allergen is ingested, contacted etc. Non IgE mediated allergies cannot be proven by tests because of the delay and are diagnosed on an exclusion diet. Ige mediated allergies can occur up to a few hours after ingestion as well. Both Ige and non-Ige mediated allergies can result in anaphylatic shock. (called anaphylactoid shock in non IgE mediated allergies)

Food intolerences are to sugars, fructose, lactose etc and are caused by a lack of or lesser amount of the emzymes needed to break these down being present in a persons digestive system. To discover what someone is intolerant to it is done by elimination diet.

The reason people react differently to the allergen each time is very similar to most illnesses. As allergy is an immune response you may react worse if your body is fighting an infection for example. Also it may notice an allergen and produce histamine but not a large amount. (strangely it doesn't seem to react according to the amount of allergen!) and so only a small reaction or the body may go on full attack mode producing loads of histamine and go into anaphylatic shock.
As with an infection - you can get a mild case of flu but the same strain can kill another person.
Also with allergens because they are proteins you have to remember that when foods are made and cooked the protein structure is altered and it may be that your body reacts to the protein most in its unchanged form - eg straight milk from a cow.

I hope I have explained it a bit? (sorry if I've confused you )

I think basically people need to understand that we as parents and the GP's etc cannot say how bad a reaction could be, but we are all too aware that it only takes that 1 reaction that could potentially kill our children. Obviously however we want them to live a normal as life as possible to try to minimise risks for them.

rational I see now why your DD would accept a chocolate cake. Perhaps a solution would be for you to provide some 'safe' desserts/ treats etc for when they can't or your DD is unsure she should accept the pudding on offer?

youarewinning - what a great explanation! An education even for me (and I thought I knew quite a lot about it!). By the way, dd has passed the baked egg and milk challenges, which actually means it is more likely that she will accept something not friendly, as it can be hard for her to know where to draw the line now (ie she knows icing is probably not allowed, but chocolate crispie cake could well be fine as many posters have pointed out, just not in this instance). Its great that she passed the challenges, but it does make life a lot more confusing!

They do have safe biscuits or fruit they give her instead of some of the puddings. The problem was on the very first day, when they probably didn't realise that she needed a special diet (ie the canteen seem reasonably aware and set up for this, the school is the missing link in not identifying dd to them).

youarewinning, that's great, thank you! You should print that out - it explains v clearly.

Go above his head to the govners and school nurse. If head can't consider that things need tightening up then you need to do this for your daughters health

Ah rational brain. It seems then your dd reacts mostly to milk in its original protein form then. It's worth trying to explain to the school that that could be why she didn't react but she could!

I think tho that's why people don't always accept an allergy. They expect a full on anaphylatic shock. My DS can have his throat swelling but still not get an ana reaction if we get AH down him quick enough in a big enough dose!!!!

OP sorry you seem to be getting a bit of a hard time on this thread, I believe that it IS the responsibility of the school to ensure your child is safe and does not eat anything she should not be having.

As you know DD is intolerant rather than allergic and I am lucky in that the deputy head has coeliacs disease ( well he is not lucky obv!!) but he is totally committed to making sure her school lunches are catered for.

He came to see me today when I was picking up DD to apologise for the cock up on wednesday (they cocked up his pre ordered meal too, he was not happy).

DD will never eat anything she is not sure of and would not take the word of a child either (it has been drilled into her) but would take the word of another adult so I have to make sure they know what she can and cannot have. I am lucky in that I have friends who work as dinner ladies so they let me know how she is getting on etc etc...

Personally if I were you ( and I know it's hard) I would let the incident with the rice crispie cake go and focus on working with the school and trying to get them on the same page as you iyswim ( as your DD will be there for some years to come).

I have been reassured by the catering staff the some of the pudding are ok for her to eat (apple strudel amongst others) but am not taking their word for it as they said it was ok for her to eat frozen yoghurt!!! They admitted their mistake when I emailed them querying it.

So I have instructed DD (and her class teacher) that she is NOT to have any pudding at all (apart from fruit salad) but she has the choice of fruit from the fruit bowl instead.

What is your DD's teacher like??? Can you talk to her??

I forgot to say that if there are some biscuits she can have but some she can't and you a worried about her getting the correct one, it might be worth saying no to ANY biscuits then you don't have that worry iyswim.

Just let her have fruit from the fruit bowl then there is less room for error iyswim.

I work in a Primary school and have children myself, so can see both parts of the argument. Firstly, as a parent I'd make sure that everyone who needs to be aware of the allergic issues is i.e. fill in a "medical and/or dietary information" form and update it regularly if the situation changes so the school is aware. Have a chat with their class teacher, teaching assistant, and mid-day supervisor. Speak to other parents in the PTA and see who else might have had a similar problem. Schools have to log all medical and dietary issues on their databases so when children travel for day or residential trips all adults are aware of what medication and/or precautions to take. Secondly, I'd ask the Head for the procedures in place for dealing with allergic reactions. There are strict H&S guidelines for schools and this would fall within it. I think it is important to build constructive relationships with school staff, especially the Head teacher, as they have a large influence on the development of your child. If you really don't feel happy with the answers you're getting, then you have every right to make a formal complaint which the governors are obliged to deal with. In defence of the Headteacher, I think their job is extremely challenging, as they're answerable to so many stakeholders. Mine is fantastic and regularly works 60-70 hours a week and I'd like to think this wouldn't happen in our school as we have got pretty good communication across the teams. It is hard though satisfying the needs of 400+ individuals at times. We're not perfect and schools are under so much pressure right now.