Teaching Creationism in school

[StuntNun]

On Friday my DS1 (9) and DS2 (5) both came home with a booklet called The Story of Creation from an external group who have been running a bible club in the school for the past few weeks. This tract has rung alarm bells with myself and DH on both religious and scientific grounds. It gives ideas such as the earth being 6,000 years old, states that the moon 'hangs on nothing' completely neglecting the effect of gravity, says there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark and describes evolution as impossible. It also talks about original sin, blood sacrifice and the story of Cain and Abel, none of which I regard as being appropriate for Primary School age children.

My oldest son laughed at the 6,000 years old idea because he knows about fossils, but the eight-year-old girl next door is very concerned about original sin. She can't understand why she was born with sin in her heart. I also worry that these dogmatic Creationist statements could lead to a crisis of faith if children take them to heart but then go on to learn about evolution in high school.

We have written a letter to the school asking whether the Principal knew the content of the booklet before it was given out but are not sure of the next action to take, and whether we need to make a complaint to the school, the Board of Governers, the education board or the Department for Education. Does anyone have any advice on how to tackle this subject? We feel that the booklet is completely unsuitable and should not have been given out at school.

Anyway Stuntnun - can you get hold of the NI core curriculum for RE and see if this stuff really is in line with it?

I'm assuming that you're a christian yourself since you sent your kids to a Bible club - if that's the case, perhaps you could discuss this with your pastor/priest or someone you respect in your church?

no school teaches that evolution is a fact. They (I) teach that it is a theory supported by an extensive body of evidence.

I don't teach creationalism as I am a scientist teaching scientific concepts. Of which, evolution is one of my most favourite

Like with like eh? Because most of the Christians I know aren't creationists.

And the ones that are don't consider the rest of us Christians...

some prominent scientists have devoted their lives to prove it possible!

Really? Can you name any?

there in black and white in genesis
which is a bronze age myth. Most cultures have one. Why would anyone believe one particular version totally unsupported by evidence?

*so called

Stuntnun, the HT reaction is very worrying, and I doubt that it is consistent with RE curriculum teaching. I take it your children won't be going to this bible club then? I would get other parents and the governors involved. Perhaps the HT just tries to brush it off and hopes you won't take it further, but would act if more complaints came in?

Ken Ham's work on creationism is particularly interesting.

I'm not bashing anyone's beliefs BTW, I just don't see what the big deal is, its not harmful and doesn't make kids stupid being taught it.

The creationism part may not be too harmful for small kids, though actually I think that encouraging a mindset that ignores evidence may harm their ability to think clearly.

The part about original sin could be very damaging to a small child, could really screw them up.

I just don't see what the big deal is, its not harmful and doesn't make kids stupid being taught it

It wont make them stupid, but it wont make them any better at analytical thinking will it?

Why teach them something that is unsupported by evidence, and that is contradicted by what we do know?

"When your kids go to secondary school they will be bombarded with the lies that evolution is a fact, which its not, its a theory."

You mean like gravity? :o

Holy shit, OP, that is worrying. I'd be with your DH on this.

I'm in NI too. The idea that young-earth creationism and bringing fundie extremists into schools to hand out leaflets of bullshit is compatible with the NI curriculum is terrifying.

I presume this is a state school?

So glad now DD1 is going to a Catholic school in September. At least that variety of bullshit I understand.

Hearhear Grimma

I'd never heard of Ken Ham so just looked him up. Er sorry, is he supposed to be a 'prominent scientist'?

Christianity is based on the belief that we have sinned and God has forgiven us, quite a major theme.

Obviously telling that to young children is distressing and I think a lot of sensitivity should be put into that. Wu don't know the right answer to that, I was taught it from a very early age, though not 'original sin' as I'm not a Roman Catholic. Just sin, as in all have sinned. It hasn't scarred me for life, but then as a Christian from a very young age I was taught about a forgiving God.

But I do take your point, a lot of children are not exposed to Sunday school etc so to hear it might be quite distressing, depending on how its presented of course.

Teaching a small child thinking about murder is the same as commitkng a murder isn't harmful?

Or that they are born sinful?

Not my kids. I think I'll stick with evolution.

Yes Grimma, in creationist circles he is.

yes...but does that make him a prominant scientist in scientific circles??

Surely that's where it would count?

Is there such a thing as being a prominant scientist in creationist circles? It must be quite unusual for a scientis to throw all that evidence aside and opt for something with less evidence than the Pastafarian belief system.

Ken Ham is not a prominent scientist, although he may present himself as one. He may be a prolific writer or broadcaster, nothing more. He has not published a single peer-reviewed scientific paper.

But I do take your point, a lot of children are not exposed to Sunday school etc so to hear it might be quite distressing, depending on how its presented

Yes - I was brought up a christian in a christian family and 'sin' cropped up but not like this. Its a very unbalanced approach.

Yes Grimma, in creationist circles he is.

I don't doubt it. I think you need to get out of that loop and try a bit of actual science done by real scientists TBH. Heck, I think there's probably people closer to being 'prominent scientists' on mumsnet!

I have far less problem with my children being taught that they are born sinful (i.e. that all people have the capacity to do wrong) than I do with them being taught stupid nonsense about the earth being 6000 years old.

I'd prefer they learnt about neither sin nor creationism, but that option isn't open to me.

yes, but creationism is so easily refutable. A small child can understand the basics of evolution so it should be easy to counteract (provided the exposure to the nonsense is just a fringe group not something they're immersed in)

Tango I respect other people's belief in Creationism and I have no wish to try and change anyone's opinion to be the same as mine. The reason for my original post is that my children have been given this booklet at school with content that I find alarming on both scientific and religious grounds. I have discussed it with my kids but I have two concerns, firstly that I have had to imply that their teachers can't be trusted to give them correct information. Second I think I have a social duty to limit children in other schools' exposure to this specific booklet. My children loved the bible club and the songs and learning, I don't want to deny them access to it. But I do think the school have been irresponsible in allowing this booklet to be handed out. I have taken the matter up with the school but now I need to take it to the board and/or Department for Education.

Grimma I am an atheist but I don't present my religious views on to my children. They believe in God and I want them to be able to make their own decisions on faith. Whatever choice they make I will support that apart from joining a cult! When they are old enough I will happily discuss my views with them but I don't judge anyone on their own beliefs.

My father, (now deceased) was a Church of Ireland clergyman in N. Ireland.

(For those who do not know the Church of Ireland is the main Protestant Episcopal church in Ireland and is a member of the Anglican Communion.)

He, and his colleagues, had no issue with the notion that Genesis was an account of the Jewish creation myth, and an important part of the Old Testament essential for putting the New Testament in context. He saw no incompatibility between science and religion and thought it folly for either to stray in to the other's domain. My copy of the "Origin of Species" belonged to him.

The RI syllabus in Northern Ireland for state, non church, schools, is an agreed syllabus and would not support the teaching of what is a particular variant of Christian belief. This variant holds that the Bible, by which they usually mean the King James Version (not the 1611 version by the way but the one in 1780 something -forget the exact date) is in every respect literally true. Consequently they deduce that the world was created exactly according to the genesis account, as a factual statement, and therefore the world has only existed for 6000 years, hence evolution could not possibly be the case as it is neither in the Bible nor is there enough time for it to work. They seem to overlook the bit that implies that the Earth is both flat and at the centre of the universe.

They are probably ignorant of the fact that the science which gives us an estimate of the age of the Earth, and even more amazingly an estimate for the age of the whole Universe is validated every time anyone makes a mobile telephone call or uses the Internet.

School should have checked. Christian groups offering to run bible clubs or youth groups tend to be at the extreme end of the spectrum.