Teaching Creationism in school

[StuntNun]

On Friday my DS1 (9) and DS2 (5) both came home with a booklet called The Story of Creation from an external group who have been running a bible club in the school for the past few weeks. This tract has rung alarm bells with myself and DH on both religious and scientific grounds. It gives ideas such as the earth being 6,000 years old, states that the moon 'hangs on nothing' completely neglecting the effect of gravity, says there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark and describes evolution as impossible. It also talks about original sin, blood sacrifice and the story of Cain and Abel, none of which I regard as being appropriate for Primary School age children.

My oldest son laughed at the 6,000 years old idea because he knows about fossils, but the eight-year-old girl next door is very concerned about original sin. She can't understand why she was born with sin in her heart. I also worry that these dogmatic Creationist statements could lead to a crisis of faith if children take them to heart but then go on to learn about evolution in high school.

We have written a letter to the school asking whether the Principal knew the content of the booklet before it was given out but are not sure of the next action to take, and whether we need to make a complaint to the school, the Board of Governers, the education board or the Department for Education. Does anyone have any advice on how to tackle this subject? We feel that the booklet is completely unsuitable and should not have been given out at school.

Indeed I would complain to HT. I am a Christian and I find the pushing of this guff highly distracting. In my view it debases the Christian message about walking on water, coming back to life and turning water into wine. If people think Christianity is about magically making the universe in 7 days, they tend to switch off and not take this otherwise entirely sensible religion seriously.

Stuntnun, you've got the right view. It cannot be presented by the school, even if it done by an ouside group, as an inarguable fact. Plus the inappropiateness of it all. Do complain and ask for another outside group to take over the bible group. This should not be taught at a primary school.

handmadetail, you're contradicting yourself. Quoting scientific evidence (rightly) as a way to progress knowledge about the world is exactly why we DON'T need to consider teaching creationism. It is not even a mainstream view amongst believers. It is not about letting children (!) make their own mind up, it's about not letting our children waste time learning about things that blatantly not true. Accepting that fossils give us evidence about dinosaurs is NOT a belief, and putting creationism on par with that is not totally misguided.

IS totally misguided, obviously.

Hello OP, from what you've said I'd agree with you absolutely. I think you come across in a very measured way.

Would you mind giving us some exact quotes? or even identifying the tract if you can?

Of course we have to make decisions about which views should and should not be debated in school. We would be setting off down a very dangerous road if we did not do that. The bible can be used as a starting point for justifying child sacrifice or enslaving neighbouring countries, but I doubt many parents would be pleased if a child came home with a booklet about either of those topics as acceptable in contemporary society.

Sending your child to a bible class is not a justification for somebody teaching creationism. I was brought up in a very religious household and attended bible classes, Christian summer camps and so on. I was never taught, or had any discussions about creationism. It is the view of a tiny minority in the UK.

There are a lot of topics that are genuinely controversial that could be debated in schools. Debating creationism is like debating the existence of elves; it is not a matter of particular importance in the UK.

I have many Christian friends who would be unhappy at their child coming home with that tract.

You need to go to HT and get them to look at what they are sanctioning in their school for primary school age children.

Not all beliefs are worthy of respect. And many are downright dangerous. That is not a dangerous road. It is living in a civilised society. Teaching children they are sinful or that the dinosaurs never existed has no place in the 21st century.

I think there is a difference between older children debating these issues in school under guidance of a teach - in science you can critically examine the evidence for the world being created in 7 days, 6000 years old etc In philosophy you can consider the differences between empiricism and rationalism in history you can look at how the church ruthlessly sought power through the centuries, burned books, burned people with the wrong bible in their hands.

But these are primary school children being fed this nonsense by someone they perceive as an authority figure. And that is unfair.

Not sure how it works in NI, but I would ask the head to discuss it with the governors, and as a school governor I would be concerned. Is it an outside group that is running the club separate from the school (ie just hiring a room as a yoga teacher or karate club might do, out of normal school hours)? Or have they been brought in by the school as part of the teaching day? If the former, then I would tell the group to stop propogating such guff or they'll lose their pitch. If the latter, then that implies that the school is sanctioning the approach, which is much more disturbing IMHO.

Actually when Darwin published, the vast majority of people accepted that he was right, even if they didn't like it. The reason he took so long was because he was making absolutely sure that not one bit of it could be dismissed as 'speculative' - and several other people were almost there on evolution just before him. There were a load of 'scriptural geologists' who had tried to say it was all because of a big flood, but they were considered laughably wrong even by the 1830s.

I find it ridiculous that so many years on, so many people have retreated into what was known to be nonsense even in 1830!

Tiggytape, more people in the UK believe in some form of the paranormal (ghosts, cryptozoology, psychic powers, creatures like elves or sprites) than believe in God. Folklore and religion have both been a major part of shaping UK culture.

And we do teach primary school aged children about fairies, ghosts, Noah and the ark, Greek gods and Titans and so on. That is very different from handing out a booklet which is not presented as a work of fiction and states that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Well I agree about the science thing, was just trying to be generous

Tiggytape, the worrying thing about creationism is that it suggests that the scientific method is a "point of view", just like any faith, whereas it isn't. It's a method. To add to that creationism suggests that their point of view is scientifically based, which obviously is it not.

I am all for teaching children respect for people's faiths (not just christianity), understanding our own cultural history and the role of christianity in it. Creationism does not need to be included in that at all. It is not important nor mainstream nor does it help our understanding of the world.

The group is called Hope for Youth Ministries and approached the school offering to run an after-school bible club which we gave permission for our children to attend. The boys have been enjoying the club although I did have a minor concern before this when DS2 said to me, God is watching you and he'll know if you're lying. I was making up a story about a monster in the lake near where we were having lunch that eats little boys who don't eat their dinner!

I'll put some excerpts on later.

"Teaching it as a belief system is perfectly valid - it is afterall what some people believe even if you think they're nuts. "

It's not valid to teach young-earth creationism to small children as a valid "belief system".

As has been pointed out, it is nothing of the sort.

Teach children that God created the world, or that many people believe the world was created by a god, but don't teach them arrant made-up politically motivated lies about the earth being 6000 years old.

That guff is as valid as the teachings of L Ron Hubbard, and as culturally significant. And I don't want my kids learning that they are the trapped souks of aliens any more than that the last ice age happened before the universe existed.

Not even "some people believe that the earth is younger than that U-shaped valley", unless it is to make clear that those people are wrong.

There is certainly a big difference between talking about belief systems with your child at home and them being presented with lurid unsophisticated ideas of sin and creation in a school setting.

If you went to a certain church or temple and they were teaching your children this stuff then you either think 'brilliant! I always suspected David Cameron was really a lizard" or you don't take your child back.

School is a different power base - you are asking your children to trust their teachers, you are backing up the teaching, you are saying to your child, this is what we know.

I would not want my daughters to be taught they are sinful at school. That is a dangerous idea for women and girls (and boys for that matter.) In context it's fine (ie; this idea allowed the social control and persecution of women for centuries) but coupled with the idea that God is in charge and always right, it's dangerous.

But again, age is the issue - at 5 they barely have theory of mind, at 10 they should be exploring controversial ideas and thinking critically about them.

If it is the case that it is an after school club not run by the school, I'd kick up a stink and ask the school to get rid. Schools receive valuable income from letting their premises out to other organisations and clubs but it should not be to controversial organisations that undermine what they will be learning in science (and in RE as well).

tiggytape Tue 22-May-12 11:47:23
"But belief in elves doesn't feed into our everyday lives in the same way religion does. Even if you are not at all religious, by living in the UK, you are part of a nation and a society shaped in almost every way by Christianity in its various forms over many hundreds of years."

Aren't we overlooking that the 6000 year old earth belief is a) not biblical b) not a belief held by mainstream UK Christians- it has not been the official standpoint of the Anglican church for a long time: it is a belief, in the main, that has recently been imported from Evangelical American Christian groups. Even the Catholic Church accepts the basic idea of evolution.

To me "this country has been shaped by Christianity so therefore we must now accept beliefs held by a different group of Christians in a different part of the world" seems a very odd proposition to say the least. I have no intention of turning monophysite either.