Low Aspirations

[IndigoBell]

Bloody hell I'm cross.

Why do teachers have such low aspirations?

How dare DDs teacher be happy with her attainment. Happy - as in rushed out of school to tell me how well she'd done in her latest test.

On track to almost get a C at GCSEs - and he's happy :(

I hate school. Every bit of it.

There is no expectation that children will do well - only that they'll make a set amount of progress each year.

Children are always told they're brilliant and wonderful - they're never told they're not doing well and they're actually going to have to work hard if they want to achieve something.

No expectations that a child will do well :(

The culture here sucks.

School thinks it's better to have a failing happy child - then a child who works hard :(

But because they make school so fun and engaging she refuses to let me take her out and teach her at home :(

Indigo A happy mother makes a happy child. If you are anxious about DDs progress, then she is likely to pick up on that sooner or later.
Once a child makes a stride forward, there is no going back. Yes, they do "unlearn" stuff over the summer hols but they don't forget how to read completely, do they? What I'm trying to say is, give your DD a boost by getting her some help, either inside or outside school. If you can afford it, get some tuition for her in her weakest areas. Once she begins to make progress then she will go from strength to strength. Our DDs went to a failing primary school and still got decent SATs scores because they had tuition and I pushed them all the time. They are grateful now and say it was the best thing to do.

"Nobody is actually predicting her GCSEs. I'm just saying remaing in the bottom 10% is unacceptable and not something to be pleased about."

But presumably somebody has to be in the bottom 10%, non? The important thing is whether you have good reason to believe that your individual dd is not naturally in that category and so should be made to find her real potential.

Ds is in Yr 7 and I am gradually coming to the conclusion that he is not as un-talented as his results would seem to indicate. (Unfortunately, I am also gradually coming to the conclusion that the fault does not lie with ds' teachers, nor even with his parents, but with ds himself who simply doesn't want to work and pay attention, so not a case for faulting the teachers.) But I think I have a right not to be happy.

On the other hand, there is nothing to say that just because he is my child, ds could not have been among the bottom 10% of the population in terms of potential. In that case, it would have been wrong of me to say that is unacceptable because none of my children is allowed to fail. It would be like saying none of my children is allowed to be disabled, or is allowed not to be musical; saying it wouldn't change matters if that's how it really was. Dd's headteacher was very keen on telling us that it was unacceptable that dd was off sick every few weeks- that didn't make a blind bit of difference because dd had no control over that; it just made her feel that she wasn't good enough for this world and would never get accepted.

So it's all a matter of knowing where you are, what your dd can control, and then being firm.

Rezolution - yes DD forgets totally how to read every summer. Despite doing learn to read activities every single day.

Her learning difficulties are not caused by anxiety - mine or hers. She is a happy confident child who knows she is very bright. She is not in the least stressed or worried or anxious.

Cory - like I said, there is no question tha she is very clever. Nobody doubts that. That is why bottom 10% is unacceptable.

But if bottom 10% is all she can ever achieve - then I have no intention of wasting the rest of her childhood by sending her to school each day.

I will not send her to secondary school if she has no realistic chance of passing GCSEs.

Luckily in this country home educating is an option.

If she doesn't learn to read and write in the next 2 years I will not allow her to go to secondary school.

Indigo - I noticed up thread that you said that you have sadly just lost your job. Would it be an option for you to remove your dd from school just for the rest of this term and help her full time at home or flexi school say mornings at school afternoons at home. You would also have the whole of the summer holidays and it could make a massive difference.

I want to do exactly that - flexi school her in the mornings. But she is totally against the idea.

But it is certainly something I'm keeping in mind. And might well do next year, depending on what teacher she gets.

She probably won't make any progress over summer. She never has before. But I'll keep trying.

A lot of things have changed between this summer and last, so hopefully I'll have more success this year.

gracie I do understand that there are patterns of progress and targets (and agree that there should be).

The key word for me though is "target", and a target is quite different from a ceiling.

It's our job as parents (and hopefully teachers do this too) to say, where appropriate, "this is your target, but I think you can exceed that", and to help make that happen.

Its difficult when as parents we only want whats best for our children but they resist what is so obviously the right option. Does your dd actually know why its important to get her back on track as it could have a massive impact on the rest of her life. I know its hard for kids to see it but perhaps having a chat about how things actually work in secondary school with gcses, a levels and beyond may help her to see how important it is. Dont get me wrong I am not for one minute advocating piling on the pressure as there are always kids that are just not academic but thats not to say that are not capable just not interested.

Sadly, I think the problems kids face when they fall behind is because the curriculum is too full. A quote my friend gave me from the head teacher of her childrens school which has always stayed with me is that KS1 is about learning to read KS2 about reading to learn. Sadly those children who do not fully master the basics in KS1 are almost being set up to fail because there will never be enough time in the school day for teachers to put in place interventions to help these kids catch up. All the schools are then interested in is making set levels of progress not actually trying to accelerate the progress so that these kids will never really get to the levels required to enter secondary school. There will always be kids of course who buck the trend due to their own hard work and determination but they are rare. A case in point is my friends niece who has been in bottom sets in secondary school from year 7. She is now in year 11 but she had some would say the good fortune at the age of 13 of getting a boyfriend who was in top sets for everything. He has coached her through and she took GCSE Maths and English last year and got As for both. She is now taking a raft of others which she is expected to do well in. Would this have happened if she hadnt of met her boyfriend I doubt it.

Indigo Sorry, I misunderstood the situation. I see what you are saying now. Well, looks like the next two years are going to be busy for you and your DD.
Let's hope you can make some real progress!

I hate schools with low aspirations! DS had to go to one at the end of Y5 as we moved, and it was so different from his previous high aspirations school, it was infuriating. His previous school started to teach him long division and long multiplication in Y5 - they thought he was ready for it and he's quite good at maths; his new school didn't even teach that in Y6 (top group), because 'they may not be ready'
Anyway he managed a 5b in Y6, and got into the top set for maths in Y7. And guess what - they expect them to be able to do long multiplication and long division, so had to do that at home. I'm just thinking that if he'd spent all his primary years at the second school, and didn't have support at home, he would have done much worse than he did, despite having the same ability.

OP, do you have any idea why she is 2 years behind? There has to be a reason for it. She probably needs to be assesed by an Educational Psychologist - either through the school or privately if you can afford it.

She's been seen by the EP. He observed / assessed her 3 times over the space of a year. At the end of that he recommended she get dictation software and a reading pen!

So he had the absolute lowest expectations of anyone I've ever met. Aged 8 he thought she would be better off using software rather than learning to read and write

Luckily school didn't try and suggest we follow his recommendations

Vess - Obviously, I dont know indigos circumstances and if there is an issue with her dd but all I can say is it is perfectly possible for a child to be 2 years behind if the school has not put in place proper help for her. As said in a previous post if a child has not got a proper grasp of the basics by the end of KS1 then it is very hard for them to catch up because the curriculum is so packed that it leaves little time for proper intervention programmes to be put in place. I have seen this in my own school. A couple of years ago I volunteered to go in and help 1 morning a week. For some reason it was deemed a good idea to give me an intervention group. I had a wide range of ages from year 3 to year 6. Initially, I just listened to them read what ever reading scheme book they were on but it soon became very clear to me that the real problem was not one of them had a proper grasp of basic phonics something which should have been covered in KS1. None of them had any reported sen or statements of any kind just that they could not read because for whatever reason they had not been taught phonics properly or if they had, had not had sufficient practice at it. How on earth was I gonna help them catch up with the 20 minutes a week I gave them. I did for a while go back to basics with them but I started to feel guilty that I could not give them more of my time because thats all they really needed time away from the classroom to learn. I gave up the volunteering in the end.

Two things strike me here:

1. you say she does not want to be home/flexi-schooled? Well tough - you make the decision not her. Why are you even giving her the choice if you feel it would be best for her?

2. just maybe she isn't that clever. Not all children are.

She probably has close friends at school - I think it is completely understandable that she doesn't want to leave to be honest.

Personally I do think ability is partly innate and I say that as someone with a social science background. That doesn't mean children shouldn't be challenged though.

I also know from personal experience that academic achievement is not a guaranteed path to happiness or wealth.

Titchy Well, the EP thought she was very clever. As do all of her teachers.

If a child can't learn they're given one of a variety of labels (dyslexia, dyscalculia, SpLD, Moderate learning difficulties, etc, etc) - and she's got a label. But the label is nothing more than a label. It doesn't actually help her learn. Nor does it help school in any way. It's just a category on the SEN register she's filed under.

When I'm really confident I want to flexi school her I won't give her the choice. But at the moment it's not 100% clear that that is the right decision. But you are right, it is my decision to make not hers - however without her buy in it'll be a miserable time for everyone.

Cass - she's on lots of interventions at school. That's not the problem.

Even if you have not read Indigo's post stating her daughter has been assessed to be on the 98th percentile, do you really believe it is OK for those who are not "academic" or "all that clever" not to be able to read by the age of 9? My nephew with Down's Syndrome could read well by that age, and is reading age-appropriate books now he is in his teens.

Everyone needs to be able to read adequately to be part of this society, whatever their "ability".

Indigo is quite right to fear her DD will never catch up if she leaves it to the school. It was only after I was shown my DC's computer-generated "tracking" that I understood why three years of expressing my concerns over his lack of progress had served no purpose: every time he failed to meet a target his subsequent target was lowered, so although he made no progress in terms of levels he was still "on target"!

'Not clever' doesn't explain it - the curriculum is designed with the average child in mind, not a super clever one. All children should be able to reach te expected levels opr thereabout without too much difficulty. A serious underachievement means there's a problem IMO. Or really rubbish teaching.

Indigo, when my DS was assesed for dyslexia in Y2 (ok, it was done privately and we were in another country at the time but still), we got a report about 15 pages long with the results of various IQ-type tests they have done, his score on each one, explanation and recommendations. You learn a lot about your own child. She was UK-trained, by the way, so I thought that was the standard.

Personally I do think ability is partly innate - I think ability is fairly innate as well, that's why I want her to achieve to her ability.

I think she'll always be happy in life - because that is her personality (and that has been proven in many experiments to be a pretty fixed part of your personality)

But you have no confidence in her teachers or the EP! Teachers have no expectations and EP said she needed a scribe rather than learn to read and write! So why do you have confidence in when they say she is clever.

Not trying to cause an argument btw. And of cours every child should have high expecations made of it, but they have to tend towards the reaslistic as well surely otherwise you're setting them up for an almighty fall.

vess - as I said, we got the EP report and he didn't have any recommendations as to how to help her. Not because he didn't fully assess her, but because he didn't have any more ideas. Everything he would normally recommend had been tried by that point.

If EPs had all the answers there would be no kids leaving school unable to read and write.......

Yep I agree indigo, I wasn't having a dig at you or your dd, actually, it was the stuff at the beginning of the thread about tiger-mothering and the east asian cultural belief that everyone can achieve academic greatness if you push them hard enough.

Are there any other schooling options near to you? Sorry I may have missed bits of the thread as I have been up and down the stairs trying to persuade DS to nap.

Out of curiosity, where did this percentile thing come from? What measures do EPs use?

Well, the EPs done all the standardised tests, and come out with a standardised score.

I don't believe it exactly. I don't believe she's exactly the 98th percentile. I'm sure if they did the test another day it would have come out with a slightly different number.

But there is no reason to believe it is not more or less right. (If you believe in the concept of 'cognitive ability')

There really is no question that she is clever. No one has ever suggested the reason she is so far behind is because she is stupid.

She doesn't appear at all stupid when you talk to her. She doesn't appear at all stupid next to her classmates and friends.

Please adlibber that's all too depressing. I've said it before and I'll say it again the child that starts ahead tends to stay ahead. My son's pathway is determined by his results at the end of KS1. He sits in his guided reading group able to do so much more, it's depressing. His writing group is higher - as he ended KS1 stronger in this area (allegedly) - yet his reading is outstanding now and comprehension but it isn't on the radar. Simply put, no one expects him to be as good as he can be. ironically his writing isn't currently as strong.

I was told only the exceptional ended KS1 as a 3b in reading. And now in Y3 that hallowed group sit together moving further and further ahead. My son was a 3C - pretty good. But he's always at the top end of the less able group - as he started Y1 unable to read (there were reasons for this).

I was told yesterday I insulted teachers because I said they were under pressure to get all pupils to make expected progress. I said that Y6s who were level 5s were at an advantage as teachers were obliged to make them rise the appropriate amount of sub levels to show they were not weak teachers. The able or later developing child that comes to Y6 a level 4 or level 3 is clearly at a disadvantage in the sense that no one is under pressure to elevate them to the same standard as those that came in as a 5. I am not insulting teachers or disrespecting them, I in fact I have enormous sympathy.

It's a reductive system and why people don't see this baffles me. Look at TES there are literally hundreds of posts from teachers talking about this.

As for Indigo the previous poster that made the negative comment clearly hasn't read the thread.

Jenai - I haven't got the EP report here. It was the normal standard tests, I can't remember exactly which one. It might have been the WISC

They just call it cognitive ability instead of IQ as it's more politically correct.....

Narmada - we've already moved school once. And I am infinitely more happy with this school than my previous one