If you had paid for private school and also paid for a tutor, and your DC still didn't pass the 11+ would you consider it a waste of money?

[sandyballs]

My ante natal group have been having this debate as a couple of them paid for private schools and tutored with the view to getting into the local grammer but their children didn't pass and they are now going to the local state high school.

Whereas a couple of kids who did go to the local state primary are now going to the grammer.

I'm just interested in MN views, although I'm obv aware of the tension and conflict over private v state so go easy!

Whoops, grammar!

Depends how good the private school was.

If their DC has been given excellent general knowledge, taught how to learn, plan their time effectively and had access to a wide range of opportunities, subjects, sports etc then how can that ever be a waste?

If the entire point was just to score a place at the local grammar and there were no other benefits to the school then I can see why it might be considered a waste.

If the children didn't pass the 11+, it might also be the case that they are just not grammar-school types and would struggle when they got there (especially if they failed despite a private school and tutor behind them).

The 11+ was designed to identify children (of any background) with the ability to benefit from a grammar school education. It's now been hijacked by the middle classes to such an extent that they think they can "pay" for a grammar place for their child/ren, regardless of their ability.
On that basis, grammars need abolishing, or a better selection system introduced. I am an ex-grammar student btw...

The tutor was probably a waste of money.

Well I don't think a private education a waste if the child has had a decent, well rounded, primary education, I think it unnecessary, but that's another debate all together.,
I would however, be ashamed that I knew so little about my child, that I didn't realise that despite all this extra help, s/he wasn't academic enough for a grammar place.

I would just think the kids who didn't pass weren't bright enough. Some kids are just brighter than hours. Yes, tutoring can help but there has to be some ability there to begin with. I did the eleven plus 20 years ago, 24 out of 30 passed in my class (a prep school), but even before results were out most of us at 11 knew who the kids who weren't going to pass would be- despite the tutoring.

I would be a bit annoyed if the school and the tutor hadn't warned me they might not pass. I do know a family who were advised to find 'a more suitable school' for their 9 yearold as she was unlikely to pass the exam for the secondary school. At the time I thought it very cruel but maybe it was best that the parents were told.

To be fair, an 11+ test for a local authority school is not the prep school's concern. They can only advise on CE and independent school 11+ exams, and other matters of suitability for a specific senior school.

What are they to say? "Your kid is thick. No point in spending money on him"?

I imagine most tutors warn parents their dc is unlikely to pass... after all it's not in their interest to have lots of failures.
It's whether the parent chooses to hear what is being said imo.

Some children just aren't intelligent - fact of life. You can't make a child clever no matter how much information is forced into them, or where that information comes from, state, private, tutor - it doesn't matter.

(a fact I wish some parents would accept).

It is up to the DC. It can be a wonderful tutor but the DC may not be intelligent enough. It also requires effort and commitment from the DC. When I tutored 6 DCs, the only one not to get level 4 in SATs what the one I thought the brightest to start with. He didn't want a tutor and he didn't make any effort. 'You can lead a horse to water but............'
I did it through school. His parents wanted to pay me privately afterwards but -no way-he wasn't going to change.

If I were the child, I would seriously resent the tutor on top of the school hours, all to find out I still wasn't capable of passing an exam that was obviously extremely important, considering the amount of time my parents had wanted me to devote to it. As the parent, therefore, I would feel bad and a bit backed into a corner when it came to trying to make my kids feel good about the school they were now going to attend for the next 5 years or so.

Is this in Kent, where the alternatives to the grammars are never going to be considered as good as comprehensives in other counties?

If you need to pay a tutor on top of school fees then either the school is very poor or you have been fed misleading information about your DC's ability.

That said, if you are talking about an area with a state grammar system then it will be the state primaries who will have the heads up on how to prepare the kids and they will spend time actually doing it. Conversely, the prep school will be set up to prep for CE at 13 and will have no interest in tutoring for the 11+.

Education is always worth it.

And grammars have become stupidly hard to get into - a few years ago that was not the case, but now it is. It's more a lottery of tutored kids than anything else.

"If their DC has been given excellent general knowledge, taught how to learn, plan their time effectively and had access to a wide range of opportunities, subjects, sports etc then how can that ever be a waste?"

You will probably find that most state primary schools offer the above at zero cost to the parent :)

We knew a couple of kids from our nursery class that went the prep route and apart from a smaller class size and a more academic pressure there was no advantage to going private that we could see.

"it will be the state primaries who will have the heads up on how to prepare the kids and they will spend time actually doing it"

I wish mine went to your state primary school because mine showed zero interest in the subject

... the latter 'mine' being our state primary.

Wouldn't life be simple if you had pots of money, could get the best tutor ever, and could sit back while your DC wins all the prizes? Luckily life isn't like that-it is down to the basic intelligence of the DC and the amount of effort they are willing to put in. Money doesn't buy everything.

If the private school and tutor didn't do anything else for my dc than get them through this test, then I'd think they were a waste of money in the first place.

It depends. On whether I was doing it purely as a means of pushing for a grammar place, or whether I genuinely felt my child was benefitting from small class sizes and more likely to achieve his full potential with tutoring, even if he was academically streets away from ever being able to touch a grammar place.

I am the second sort of mother, so No. I would not.

"It's more a lottery of tutored kids than anything else"

I was just about to say -nonsense... But then I asked DS (who had no private tuition) how many kids at his grammar were privately tutored prior to sitting the entrance exam and he said quite a few!

Shows how much I know.

Basically - I think DC either have the 'smarts' or they don't. You can't make them be clever.

I think it depends on the percentage of grammar places. In Essex only about 5% max get a place, whereas in Kent I think it's about 25-30%. In Kent you could argue that anyone with slightly above average ability could be hot-housed and taught the ropes to get through the system, and perhaps a naturally bright child who has had very little support or preparation and has barely seen a test paper before could have an off-day and miss out.

But in Essex, all the tutoring in the world cannot get you a place in the top 5% if you do not have a huge degree of natural academic (and mostly mathematic) ability. However, I think there is little doubt that if you pitted two intellectually equal children against one another for a grammar place, the child from the private school, or the one with the long-term tutor or the one who has a canny, pushy teacher for a parent will stand a much, much higher chance of getting the place than the other child who just gets to look at a test paper for half an hour once a week for a few weeks at 'Eleven Plus Club' with a bunch of other kids at his state school.

Thanks for replies, very interesting.

Not Kent, Sutton/croydon Borders.

Competition is especially intense in the London overspill.

"I think DC either have the 'smarts' or they don't. You can't make them be clever."

It makes me laugh whenever people post comments like this. If one follows this logic to its conclusion then there is no point in trying to get into a Russell Group university since it adds no value over a course from say Thames Valley University and your DC is going to emerge at the end of 3 years with the same 'smarts' regardless of which route they took.

Granted, a selective school and/or tutoring isn't going to make a slow kid clever but it will make him cleverer relative to his untutored state.