If you had paid for private school and also paid for a tutor, and your DC still didn't pass the 11+ would you consider it a waste of money?

[sandyballs]

My ante natal group have been having this debate as a couple of them paid for private schools and tutored with the view to getting into the local grammer but their children didn't pass and they are now going to the local state high school.

Whereas a couple of kids who did go to the local state primary are now going to the grammer.

I'm just interested in MN views, although I'm obv aware of the tension and conflict over private v state so go easy!

Not just a waste of money, but a waste of that poor child's playtime. They would have done better to save all that money in primary and tutoring and just sent the child to an indep secondary, if the comps were such a big concern.

"They would have done better to save all that money in primary and tutoring and just sent the child to an indep secondary, "

LOL. Yes, because it's easy to get into a good private secondary with no tutoring :)

SoupDragon - it is if the child is bright enough to get into a grammar school .

Actually, in a super selective area, I suspect it is FAR easier to get into a good private secondary than into the super selective grammar school.

I think i have gone off the whole grammar school nonsense, which areas don't have them ?

I don't think any exist in Sussex, do they? Or Hampshire? Or Norfolk or Suffolk? Or Northumberland? Or Durham? Mind you, I realised when I went to university that some people had been to private grammar schools - ie schools which had just kept the name "grammar" in them but had nothing whatsoever to do with state education and which had no intention whatsoever of letting children in for free if they passed the 11 plus.

"I think that private primary is a tremenous investment if you have a really dim child."

OK, aside from the dubious "dim" label this is not necessarily the case. Just as there are good, OK, and not-so-good state primaries, there are good, OK and not-so-good private primaries too.

There are a couple of private primaries near me where I would definitely not send a child, especially if they took a bit more time to learn things than some.

Some private primaries do things like:

Create an "exam factory" where all they really focus on is getting a child through 11+ or independent secondary exams;
Refuse to differentiate work within a class, arguing that is much better for them all to learn together because the slower ones keep up with the others (which they don't - can leave a child with very poor self-confidence and believing that the just "can't do" maths or whatever).
Put pressure on parents (and sometimes children) to do independent entry exams ( because it boosts their statistics?) even when they have decided not too.
Have really old fashioned resources (especially reading books - Kipper et al would be quite modern compared with some.) This wouldn't matter if they were good resources but a lot of the reading books are soooo boring.
Do nearly all their teaching as "chalk and talk" from the front. Not good when children can learn so much better by using "hands on" equipment, discussing and exploring for themselves etc
Can have unqualified teachers, which may not matter if they are good, but will matter a lot if they aren't and only base their teaching on what they experienced at school 100 (or thereabouts) years ago.
Can have Headteachers who are not qualified teachers and may never have actually taught themselves - again this can be OK, but it does sometimes mean they just run the school as a business without a good enough awareness of what teaching and learning is about.

I could go on... but I won't!

Of course there are some great independent primaries too, just as there are some great state ones. The important thing is choosing a school that will help your child learn well and grow and develop as a person - whether that is state or private.

Round our way, it's way easier to get into a good private secondary than into a grammar.

I was privately educated before getting into a Grammar school and then was tutored to keep up in maths and Latin.

DD is going to a private junior school but they don't particularly help them with any 11+ exams - the expect you to stay to 13 and then help them with their Common Entrance.

Private school is far more than just an exam factory. DD is at the top of her year, academically, but there will be other children who are struggling but are still having a fantastic time.

Agree with sarahfreck it depends on the school. There are three little private schools near us and it is amusing to me to see all the pushy mums parading their children in their blazer/boaters& frocks when in fact I happen to know that compared to our little state Primary school their facilities are awful. They have barely any computers. One of them has a whiteboard...just the one. Two of them have no school meal provision so all the children have to bring packed lunch...even in the Winter and some of the lessons are taken by Teaching Assistants (no offence to TA's but you know what I mean). One of them is in a pretty 'Enid Blyton' look building though and I'm told the gardens are just "lovely". Personally I wouldn't send mine to any of them even if I could afford it. Unless you can afford Eton/Haberdasher's Askes or equiv. save your money and put it toward their student loan!

Mopswerver, you said,
'Unless you can afford Eton/Haberdasher's Askes or equiv. save your money and put it toward their student loan!'

Therefore making the assumption that all independent schools are either like the twee little private primaries near you which lack facilities or very famous public schools. What about all the high achieving, vibrant 4-18 day schools around the country with an abundance of facilities, small classes, highly qualified staff and very basic, practical uniform?

It always amazes me how many people equate private education with places like Eton. It is very far removed from the reality of most independent schools (thankfully IMO)

You can't polish a turd. You can put in as much as possible into a child, but if there isn't a natural intelligence to begin with, the child isn't going to achieve as highly as a very intelligent child.

claresf, that is brave words, I got told off for using the word "dim".

I think its sad that people see the purpose of primary to pass the 11+. I know of several private primary schools near me where the children reach high academic standards and enjoy amazing facilites.

The parents are paying for the extra music lessons, French taught by a native speaker, amazing sports facilites and science labs. In a good private school the average child will enjoy the experience even if they don't learn an awful lot.

Haha, I think I might get shot down in flames for that.

Seriously, you need to take on board what the child can achieve, and what is going to be best for the child. One of our kids was put in for one of the top London grammars when he is in a lower/middle ability group. Ridiculous of his parents to do that when it'll just bruise his self esteem.

I say to my parents that xx child might get into one of the grammars, but he/she would probably be towards the bottom, or towards the top in a non selective school. What is best for their ego?

I'm not sure about polishing turds but a high quality education is one which enables a child to achieve all they can and this isn't just academic. If a child gets self confidence, team working and leadership skills etc from a private school (I got this from a comp by the way) then money is not wasted. As a parent it's tough but you have to accept it if your child isn't meant to go to Oxbridge.

Katiebeau, I totally agree with that. Education is about producing a well rounded child who has achieved their potential.

A friend of mine brought a flat next to the grammar school, DC got in on distance. The whole thing is unfair, children from poorer backgrounds who deserve a place at Grammar school are missing out IMO

Having met people who are less qualified, less intelligent and in the same if not better positions within organisations clearly their private education bought them something and I for one want to make sure my DC get a slice of the action. Little turds that they no doubt are

You cannot get into a grammar school on distance the child must have passed the 11+ too

I dont think its the same for all Grammar schools Heswall some take siblings without them having to sit the test also I know this child got in on distance ie hes not bright, hence why the parents brought the flat.

Some 'grammars' are still grammar by name only though, even if they are not any longer part of the selective grammar system. I believe Steyning Grammar in Sussex is like that? Also some independent schools call themselves grammars, so I think people can get in a bit of a muddle when they talk about state grammar school and what is actually means. I remember listening to some woman on the Jeremy Vine show on a phone-in about educational standards and failing schools and she was prattling on about making sacrifices so she afford to send her child to a grammar school.

There are also some schools which are not selective if you live in catchment, but they keep a proportion of places for out of catchment children who are selected on ability - especially if it's a high ability in that school's particular specialism.

However, I cannot imagine that your friend's school is a true grammar shooting if it takes any child purely on account of distance, as it would totally defeat the object of selecting other children by ability and targeting all teaching at the very high ability levels only (or in the case of Kent, merely a above average) - which is what a grammar school does. If would be a poor school indeed if it failed the children who were not capable of learning/working under pressure and at speed.

Steyning Grammar is a comprehensive. West Sussex doesn't have grammar schools afaik.

And (eg) Thetford Grammar is an independent.

Thank you RMPMBT!

You're welcome- I am from round there and my mum used to teach at one of the feeder primaries

Parmitars (near Watford) awards some places on distance, siblings don't get tested and half the places are selective.

It is a an absolute farst having a partial grammar.

Its a shit deal if you are poor and can't afford tutoring or private primary or a really expensive house.