If you had paid for private school and also paid for a tutor, and your DC still didn't pass the 11+ would you consider it a waste of money?

[sandyballs]

My ante natal group have been having this debate as a couple of them paid for private schools and tutored with the view to getting into the local grammer but their children didn't pass and they are now going to the local state high school.

Whereas a couple of kids who did go to the local state primary are now going to the grammer.

I'm just interested in MN views, although I'm obv aware of the tension and conflict over private v state so go easy!

I would like a bilateral system like what Ashlyns (Berkhamstead) had 50 years ago. The school had a grammar section and a secondary modern section.

Presumably it was a biliateral school as part of a selective system. If it was part of a comprehensive system, it would be a partially selective. Or if it did nothing in particular to select the pupils for the grammar section, it would just be - a comprehensive.

Partially selective GS typically only select for 25% to 30% of places. That still leaves 70%-ish places for local kids. Thats seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

I agree that the system is not fair or desirable but in my case getting a top class education for my DCs trumps any concerns I may have that other people's kids aren't getting the same opportunities as mine.

I've told this story in other threads but the reason why we went down the selective route was that DS was ahead of his class but his state primary teacher's attitude was that her job is to raise everyone to the national average rather than nurture a child that was already above the average.

Probably get accused of generalising but comprehensives are geared towards being 'average'. Yes I know there are exceptions to this and no doubt there will be some MNetters posting about their highly ranked comprehensive but unfortunatley I don't live in your catchment area.

I have personal experience and hope to shed light on the debate. My son went to 4 different primary schools, it was obvious from the offset that he was bored and therefore got into rather a lot of trouble. I did pay for tuition but I was very lucky as the chap who provided the tuition was a former teacher at the grammar school he is at now. This teacher was able to identify whether or not my son would be able to cope with grammar school life. My son did pass the exam but even if he did not I would still see this as a benefit as opposed to a "what if". Had he failed the exam I would have known he would not be able to cope with the level of work they conduct and therefore he would have been miserable attempting to keep up, as such the amount of work and the pace of the work is vast, so I would have to say no, it's not a waste of money because you tried and as parent that's all you can do. It's up to the child. No matter where they go, if they are happy they will succeed xx

Parents don't really want it to be up to their children, though, do they? They suspect that their children will go with the lowest common denominator and will not work unless they have others to compete with and get ideas off, so want to push that denominator up. Yes, there are children who will do well whatever, because they have the drive, ambition, interest, etc, to succeed, but clearly a lot of English parents do not think they have children like that and don't want to take the chance.

PushedTotheEdge Nope. Just thought I would throw it in for fun, although I do know a family who have moved their DC from a state primary to private recently because the kids weren't in top sets and the mother thought they should be; clearly then a move to private ed will see said children put in top sets. Erm...I think not

rabbitstew - that was our thinking with DS. In his primary class he did just enough to be on the top table and I don't doubt that if we had placed him at the local comp then he would have done just enough to be on the top table there as well.

DS struggled at first but he is slowly climbing in his class ranking table at his selective school. There are some really clever kids there and DS knows that he can't catch them but he is happy to close the gap.

When people talk about sportsmen it is often agreed that in order to improve you need to compete in a higher achieving circle. I don't really understand why when it comes to children some people's attitude changes. I guess they don't see their children's education as a competition.

Not everyone needs competition. If you are a perfectionist by nature, competition can be corrosive - it's hard enough competing with yourself. I think, sometimes, parents don't consider that sufficiently, they are so blinkered by the belief that competition is healthy for everyone.

But very few kids are self motivating. Take our DS for example. We set homework for him and he just rushes through it, just to get us off his back. Whereas he will spend hours on his school project because he wants to get a better mark than his friends.

My attitude towards competition is coloured by the fact that DS is the one that gets selected for x and for y and for z. At his primary school there were a couple of kids who went through their time there without making a mark. If I was their parent then I would probably would think that competition can be corrosive on a child's self esteem.

*Lovingthecoast" Yes, we are fortunate in Wales in that we don't have SATS and if I moved back to England I wouldn't be happy about that. I take your point about assuming certain things that State schools give (sort of) although I'm still sure there must be more of a social mix in your local primary than in an independent school? Talking of assumptions though, the point I was trying to make earlier is that many people assume that by choosing and independent they are automatically choosing something better and judging by the examples near us and the ones I did teaching practice in in London, that is not necessarily the case. The small ones in particular are often short of resources due to lack of funds.
pushedtotheedge Love Blackadder, but I think you'll find that that joke was supposed to illustrate what a selfish black hearted villain he was.

I think in affluent areas, the social mix at a local day school can be very similar to that at the local state school. We found this to be true when we lived in Surrey and Cheshire though less so here in Sussex.

I totally agree that the country is littered with bad independent schools. These are usually the small ones on tiny plots with no facilities and silly hats. It never ceases to amaze me that people actually pay for those types of school but each to their own.

I think it is Human Nature to assume that If you pay for something, it must be better.

Oh I do think what we pay for is better! But I pay for the facilities, the fun, the extras that the state sector simply couldn't afford. I know this as I taught in the state sector for many years.

I think if you chose one of those types of 'twee' schools all you're paying for is the exclusivity which I was not remotely interested in.

PushedtotheEdge - I was and always have been self motivating and my attitude to competition is coloured by that. I really don't understand why some people are so bone idle and lacking in self-respect, or neurotic and insecure, that they will only work in order to be better than someone else.

Again, I think it depends on the school. Ours has 'Outstanding' facilites (Estyn Report) and because we have a strong motivated PTA that does a great deal of fund raising we are able to offer lots of extras. I'm not doing a "My Dad's bigger than your Dad" here. I'm sure yours offers even more but I think our school offers great value...it being free and all. It also means we are a very strong community as a result. All the children have friends locally and they all walk/cycle to school. Incidentally my daughter is Grade 5 already and finishes yr 6 in July. I expect many of you would want much more, but I'm just saying that the State system is not what many may imagine. You should try it!

As I said, I taught in the state sector for many years and I'm not at all frightened by it. Also, I don't expect higher results by paying. My local state primary here gets very good results and the one when we lived in Cheshire had amazing results.

I pay for stuff like swimming pool, 3 music lessons a week with qualified music teachers, amazing sports facilities, dance, drama (timetabled weekly), climbing wall, theatre with all the necessary equipment such as lighting and acoustics etc. An amazing playground with fabulous equipment for climbing and jumping. Very regular timetable of visitors including politicians, authors, drama workshops etc. I've posted this before but once school paid for a drama group to burst in dressed as Roman soldiers and take over the class. Also they once turned the KS2 area into a Victorian street with smell boxes and everything. It was amazing. I was a good teacher teaching in good schools who always did their very best but no way could they have funded have the 'experiences' my kids get at school. And it's those 'extras' that I pay for.

I think good state schools like yours offer a lovely education for children. Ive seen such schools and taught in them and yes, they do have a lovely community feel. However, when we visited the school we initially chose, I was blown away by what they could offer.

lovingthecoast,

I think you would be surprised what some state schools do get organised for experiences for the children.

I think the challenge is the huge range of ablity and large class. The children at the top end ablity range do get left to fend for themselves. However it must be so tough for a year 5 teacher to have children who once would be been at special school mixed in with gifted potential Oxbridge children.

I do feel that the poor behaviour in state schools is not taken seriously enough as a problem. I am not sure I want to go back to special schools but I would like every large state school to have a nurture unit where children who misbehave can be removed to. Children would learn that there are consquences for wrecking a lesson.

"I was and always have been self motivating and my attitude to competition is coloured by that. I really don't understand why some people are so bone idle and lacking in self-respect, or neurotic and insecure, that they will only work in order to be better than someone else"

:o :o :o

And I thought I was opinionated and intolerant of others.

Reallytired, I don't think I would be surprised as I taught in a huge range of state schools both primary and secondary. I know many state schools are excellent with really good facilities. I also know how hard they work to give the kids as many experiences as possible. However, they simply cannot compete with the best independent schools in those areas because they don't have the money.

PushedToTheEdge, I don't think its necessarily competion. Its giving a child access to classmates with the similar level of intelligence to bounce ideas off.

A gifted child can feel very isolated in a deprived comp. Prehaps schools need to use the internet to enable gifted children to contact each and colaborate on academic projects.

Oh and I have been that Y5 teacher but differentiation is part of the job and having a wide range of abilities doesn't equate to disruption. And good schoold do have policies in place to help kids unable to control their behaviour.

Not intolerant, PushedToTheEdge - just don't need them in order to assess my own merit.

I think the facilities in some public and private schools are absolutely incredible. I think I am a puritan at heart, though, and find too much of a good thing makes me uncomfortable. There's a little bit of me that doesn't want my children having experiences quite that far removed from the majority. However, I don't live in an inner city area, but in an area with a good community spirit, neither hugely wealthy nor hugely impoverished, so it's not that difficult to feel like that. There are some phenomenal and colossally expensive prep and public schools nearby, though. I do sometimes ask myself why I feel turned off by them, but I just do. There aren't so many of the lesser private schools, for want of a better word - those that were in existence have closed on after the other in recent years.

I think we're on the same page rabbitstew .

My daughter started out in a nursery in a village school in Turkey and whilst their facilities were woeful compared to most UK schools, the teachers were amazing, engaging and inspiring and had we stayed out there I would have been happy for her to continue there.
It's the feel of a school that's important. You can tell when children are happily engaged in what they are doing. Our school doesn't have a climbing wall or dance studio but happily our kids get to go to a climbing wall, Ropes & Ladders etc on school trips, they go swimming twice a week and my daughter has music lessons once a week at school, once I pay for and she is part of a community Brass Band (Free). I don't want my children to think that they are priveleged compared to their peers but to be at home in any company.

I do understand all that as the whole 'bubble' thing doesn't sit easily with me either. However, when our eldest was approaching Reception I looked around at the kids and parents he'd encounter at the local 'outstanding' primary and in all honesty, they really were no different from the ones using the private sector. You couldn't move outside the state primary for spanking new range rovers and X5s. Many of those kids lived in 1m+ homes and although for whatever reason their parents had opted for state education still had after school activities such as horse riding and still did rugby and ballet on Sat mornings. Hundreds of pounds on lavish birthday parties, 3 or 4 holidays a year etc. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the idealistic social melting pot of a state primary simply didn't exist where we lived. Nor had I seen it when we lived in Surrey.
And I regularly try to encourage my kids to consider how privileged they are. Not sure if that's the right approach but DH grew up in a proper inner city slum and for me it was just a bog standard council estate. So it's especially important to him that they appreciate that.

Lovingthecoast - are you sure the whole state primary was full of the wealthy children whose parents' cars you saw? Or is that just all you saw? I've never lived somewhere that universally wealthy, so I find it hard to imagine a whole state school full of children born into such privilege.