Reading bands and does any of it really matter if the child can already read?

[learnandsay]

My daughter is too young to have encountered a reading band of any colour or type so she's reading ordinary books like The Cat in the Hat, Green Eggs and Ham and Where the Wild Things Are. Of course Dr Seuss' books are already a restricted new-reader vocabulary series of books, which Dr Seuss' associates Flesch and Hersey challenged Seuss aka Ted Geisel to write, in response to a much earlier public panic called Why Johnny Can't read. (I think it's followed up by Why Johnny Still Can't Read. I read up about the debate a while ago when I was learning about the argument between phonics and look and say adherents.)

Essentially what I'm saying is she reads whichever children's books are in the house, with some success and a fair amount of determination, when reading time comes along. Now, my question is this: When she gets to school in September will this continue? Or will she get put on some kind of graded reading system? I've got a strong feeling that if I don't agree with the books the school gives my daughter to read I'll just ignore them and send her into school with what I'd consider proper children's books of the kind you'd buy to read to your children or borrow from the library, not formulaic or bland books for reading learners. (On the other hand, of course, if I like the books and find them interesting and challenging for her, I'll read them with her whether they're part of a reading scheme or not.)

I can see what you are saying and I kind of felt the same before and when DS1 started school, however I have now been educated as to why they use particular books at each level etc.

Why would you not agree with the book they would give her, surely they know what they are doing? Even though she can read 'normal' books there is likely to be gaps in her phonic knowledge and the reading scheme build on this. Also they teach the various rules of punctuation and grammar, all things that are required for your child to reach the different key stage one levels. Its not all about whether they are challenging for her with regards to just reading the words but her level of understanding and how she can interpret it.

We read the school books but also read anything DS wants as well such as Roald Dahl, Star Wars books and anything else he fancies.

I got frustrated when DS first joined Year R as I couldn't understand why they would give him books he could easily read and I was pushing for him to go up a level but they started giving me the comprehension worksheets that went with them so we worked on that.

Ds does say some of the school books are boring but to reach the necessary KS1/2 levels they need to be able to read a number of different texts.

I was in the same position as you when ds1 started school, he was fluently reading Dr Suess books and quite a few others, and was able to put the intonation in the right place etc.

He did get given a few very easy reading books, especially at the start when the teacher was trying to figure out exactly where he was with his reading, but she eventually let him just go at his own pace.

He did have to take part in guided reading sessions, which I completely agreed with, but for the books he took home she used to send him to the library with a TA to choose books to bring home. She also used to regularly ask if we had enough books at home. I found her very supportive. Ds's class used the Magic Key books to learn to read, and even though even the highest ones became quite easy, ds still liked reading the same types of books as his friends and enjoyed the stories.

The thing is once they can read they can read, then it all levels out. This ds is in y7 now, and is no better at reading than anyone else in his class.

She almost certainly will be put onto a graded reading system - and on to a Band lower than you think she should be, this was certainly my experience with DS, who also could read pretty well before school. Although it is frustrating, I can see that there is some logic with this approach.

They will need to be happy that she knows all of her phonics, and is sounding out rather than sight reading everything. They also test for comprehension of the story - ie 'what happens next?' and getting them to retell the story.

DS has moved up the Bands (and is ahead of his peers, but is still bringing home books that I think are too easy for him, and which he comprehends well). However, we diligently read and discuss every book sent home, and then read extras from the local library etc..

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to re-read them several times because it's an issue which really worries me.

Incidentally, I can't ever understand the argument all children reach the same reading level at some point. I think this is impossible. Plain texts get progressively more difficult from Dick and Jane See Spot the Dog, through Osbourne Phonics Reading Series, through The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Beowulf, Emmanuel Kant, Plato, Hegel and Wittgenstein, probably in that order. It's a continuum. Surely no two people can ever be on the same point of it. You either can read and understand something on it, or you can't. The only way to find out what point anybody is at would be to test them on absolutely everything and nobody ever does that. So nobody ever really knows what anybody else actually knows. All we know is whether this person or that person can pass this exam or that one. And that's not the same thing at all. If it was then teaching to the exam would be a really good idea.

Gosh, this has to be the first time Beowolf has been mentioned in a pre-school reading thread :o

If she can read all that you mention before she has even started school I really don't think you need to be so worried... she may of course have memorised the words in her favourite books.

I don't think that all children reach the same reading level, I think this is something that varies hugely however it is possible that a 4 year old child who has a reading age of 9 is unlikely to progress at this rate right throughout their schooling and that there will be many children who could not read at all at 4 will catch up or overtake that child with regards to reading ability.

I think it is impossible to tell how your child will progress at this early stage as basically some children have parental input at 3 with regards to reading or they may have a natural ability at a young age and some don't. A friend of mine never read to her child at all so there was no chance that he would ever be reading before school. Another friend read a lot to her DS however he wasn't reading at all when he started school but by Christmas he was in the G&T programme and had passed all his peers including those who were reading before school.

I really don't think you should worry as the school may be brilliant in this area and you will never have to worry. My DS1 never started on basic phonics or pink level in YR as they recognised his ability, tested his phonics knowledge for gaps and put him straight onto Y2 reading books and Y1 guided reading. I still had my concerns but as I explained in my previous post I was told about all the other areas they have to achieve within their reading and feel happier about it now.

I don't think anyone can give you an absolute answer to this, as the approach will vary enormously depending on the individual school. Some are slaves to the reading scheme, some are more flexible.

We were in a very similar situation in September, and I think I started a couple of threads then about what we should expect from the school. It's more or less resolved now (and in fact they don't send any books home as they are confident that she can read fluently and reads more than enough outside school). But you probably will need to open up a dialogue with the school, and accept that it will take a while to be completely sorted out. If you are lucky, there may be one or two children at the same level, and then it will be easier for them to differentiate. If you're really lucky it will be as straightforward as it was for lou

I understand what you are saying, but if your dd is already a good reader and you have encouraged a love of books, I wouldn't worry too much about what the school send home. If she is reading lots at home, then the school books will only be a very small part of what she is reading. They will need to check that she is learning all the skills that she needs, rather than simply being able to decipher what is on the page, so undoubtedly she will bring home some crap.

My dts are nearly 7 now, but we pretty much lost interest in the reading scheme as soon as they were able to read. They read what they want to read at home, everything from fiction, to encyclopaedias and children's newspapers. Mostly Roald Dahl and David Walliams atm! When the school complained that they weren't reading, I bought them both reading diaries to keep at home. They then write in those, daily, and every so often they get popped in the bookbag for the school to see that they ARE reading.

Children learning to read, read different levels according to level of copmpetence they have reached. However, what I think people mean when they say that all kids reach the same level eventually is that there will com a time when they become a fluent reader and are able to decode ANY text, ie an adult reading ability, some just reach this earlier than others. As an adult you don't just read books that are at your own level, do you? We often read text which is easy for us like to newspaper, or a magazine, it becomes about reading in "context' rather than reading to learn to read. Granted, some adults read better than others, or rather they have a higher ability to comprehend a challenging text, rather than a higher level of 'reading ability'.

BTW, forgot to add, mine have to read for a min of 30 mins a day, so the majority of reading they do is free choice, in comparison to time they might spend on school reading books.

I didn't really think of it as being that lucky just an expectation but reading horror stories on MN I guess we are fairly lucky but it is a 1 class per year school which is fairly open paln in layout and there are some Y2 children on the same level so the differenciating is relatively easy.

I hope it all goes well for you, try to listen to what the school say about what they think they can do and then if you're not happy then speak up. Give it some time, DS1 didn't bring a reading book home for a couple of weeks even though he could read and they did know that as his pre-school was linked to them.

Thanks, Isabelle. That's the first time I've ever had an explanation which makes any sense in regards to that expression.

i think it is extemely unlikely school will give you books that your dd finds challenging especially at the outset. In our ofsted outstanding school all children were started on non word books and made to tell the story from pictures even fluent readers. Able children in our school appear to be on books they can read word perfectly as policy in my opinion.

If if is a huge issue to you I would address it before selecting the school as in my experience it is not something schools will move much on. Once your child is at school I think there will be far more important issues as reading can be more easily addressed at home than other subjects.

We read all the school books together in 5 minutes then DS reads himself something for a child about 3 years older than the reading book for fun. As long as they have a love of reading ensuring that they want to read daily and have a wide range of books at home an early reader will continue to progress well at reading.

I don't think it'll be a huge problem for me. I think it might become more of an issue for the school if it wants me to participate in a reading scheme with my child that I think is ridiculous. I suspect I'd just ignore it. Going by my previous experience of things and systems that I don't like that's what normally happens. If I think that I can do a better job of reading with my daughter than they can, I'm hardly likely to adopt their system. Of course this is all hypothetical at the moment because she hasn't spent a day in the school yet. So I don't know how they're going to approach it. I already know that this school is not academically focussed, unlike its two neighbouring schools, either of which, outstanding and ridiculously oversubscribed schools, I would have preferred my daughter to go to. But this school is my catchment area school and I'm safely predicting that my daughter will go there. I don't know what will happen in practice but at the moment I have no intention of objecting to whatever they do or teach her in school. It's only what they might expect me to do at home which could cause them an upset. If I believe it's a waste of my time and my daughter's time I'm hardly likely to do it. If a teacher manages to persuade me that it's actually not a waste of time then I'd be more likely to do it. So far from what I've seen of the school they're not very competitive academically. We're in a grammar school area and they have one of the lowest rates of 11+ passes on the LEA website. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a lovely school and I'd be pleased for my daughter to go there. I think she'll really enjoy it. But academically I think it's quite far below its peers. And I'm fully expecting to teach my daughter a lot myself and to buy her extra tuition when the time comes. That'll be quite a few years off. But I expect it will be necessary. I don't mind at all. I think that's life. But I can imagine that a school might get upset if it wants its parents to do something and one of them refuses.

Hi there,
Well, I'll give you my experience of reading in Reception. Ds only brought home a reading book once a week since the end of January, before that none. First book was very easy, second book very easy. I then alerted teacher that he could read much better than this. Next book still easy but a lot harder than first two- made comment to this effect. Next book still easy but a bit harder, next book still easy but a bit harder....do you see the pattern here..... as we only get one book a week we do our own stuff the other days so the school reading books are really very much in the background at this stage. DS does enjoy them though even though they are easier and there is still stuff to talk about re comprehension.

I'm thinking in Year One there will be more than one a week and the books will gradually match what we do at home, but at the moment what we do at home (both us reading to him and him to us) seems to be more important and perhaps will always be the case until he is a fluent reader. I want him to feel that I support his reading at school though as well, so I would never ignore a book from school, but if it was ridiculously easy/bland etc I would only spend a short time on it before moving onto something of more substance.

In our experience they just assessed the kids when they started, worked out where they (roughly) fell on the reading scheme, and then they just whizzed through the levels fairly quickly to the free reading shelves.

It isn't rocket science. They just access books from the higher year groups.

In actual fact, I asked school to move dd2 down a few reading levels. Just because it seemed a bit ridiculous that she wouldn't have to suffer biff and chip like everyone else. She was reading c s Lewis type stuff before yr r.

I'm not sure I've totally understood your issue.

If you daughter goes to a UK school, she will go through a phonics programme and it is likely she will go onto a banded reading scheme. If the school sends books home for you to read with her, you should do this and write comments in the reading record. If you wish, you can write that your daughter read and understood the book easily and quickly and you think she should go up a level. Even if you think the book is easy or boring (or have any other complaint), you should teach your daughter that when the teacher gives her homework, she is expected to do it.

You can let her read whatever you want at home. I'm not sure why you would send your own books into school though.

Unless I have got the wrong end of the stick, you sound very against standard schooling. Perhaps you should just continue to home educate.

Have you thought about home educating?

It is quite likely inevitable that at some point in your child's schooling the school will teach / use a reading scheme / set a worksheet that you think is "ridiculous". If you are going to refuse each time this happens then I suspect you are setting yourself up for some long years of unnecessary unhappiness for both you and your child. By all means, talk to the school and ask for clarification if an approach appears to be ridiculous. You may be pleasantly surprised at the reasoning behind it. But at the moment your attitude is coming over as somewhat agressive.

When you say "I don't think it'll be a huge problem for me. I think it might become more of an issue for the school if it wants me to participate in a reading scheme with my child that I think is ridiculous. I suspect I'd just ignore it. Going by my previous experience of things and systems that I don't like that's what normally happens." School IS a system, you can't just opt out when ever you feel like it. "It's only what they might expect me to do at home which could cause them an upset." It's unlikely to cause them upset, but it may bother your daughter. Calm down a little - she hasn't even started yet!

At my sons primary school in Cambs, they have reading bands (are they uk-wide ? I dont know - the reading bands in various different books we have from other publishers seem to vary content-wise. I should probably read up on this but can't be ar*ed as I'm only concerned with DS1 at the mo)

When he started in September, at 4 and a half, he had no reading skills whatsoever. Their method is initially to sent two books home, one for reading, one for the parents to read to the child. (we've always read to him anyway) They start at level 1. As the months have passed, he has improved considerably. I write notes in his reading book each week and my comments are observed by his teacher, and in turn she makes her own comments. They are working with us to give him ability appropriate readers. He is currently being sent home with two level 7 books each week. I've just reported back that I think these are not challenging and can he move up a level again.
Some of his classmates are still on level 1 or 2. Others probably on higher levels, so all of the children are being treated as individuals, far from hindering their progress, or similarly pushing them to achieve something they arent ready for.
At home, we supplement his school readers with anything we feel is at his 'level' and we continue to read to him as well. We also have him write stories using the 'new words' list he is sent home each week. (they tend to be about Luke Skywalker, which is nice!)
I'm quite happy to work with the school in this way. They are supporting and encouraging as well as simply teaching, and thats all I can ask for.

At its simplest I believe that primary schools should stick to reading, writing and arithmetic.

The two hopelessly oversubscribed schools in my district are unabashed and unashamed that this is indeed their policy. They have very high 11+ results. The catchment school that my daughter will probably go to does not have this policy and has some of the lowest 11+ results in the county.

I strongly believe in formal schooling (and against home schooling) for social and not academic reasons. But, yes, I do believe that academically speaking some schools are not following a productive course. And I believe from its results, our catchment school is one of them. But for social reasons I think it's lovely. The head also has a social agenda which she told us about.

I am fairly seriously academically focussed and the school that my children will probably attend is not. I don't think this will necessarily cause me long years of unhappiness, betterwhen..., I'm easily prepared to accept that any education that I believe my children are lacking must be made up for by me.

I expect unhappiness would set in if I believed the school was responsible for providing some part of an education and the school disagreed with me. But if the school has already explained to me that it pursues a social and not an academic agenda (which it has done,) then I know what to expect, don't I?

Our school bands all books and the child has free choice into the books they choose to read. Dd who learnt to read using the books in the house read a few reading scheme books (for novelty I think) then swiftly reverted to reading general books. She has managed to avoid reading scheme books ever since.

I agree with previous posters, I think you are setting yourself up for a fall.

You seem to take pride in the fact that you will object if the feeling takes you, it sounds like you are almost looking forward to it. . To state that you like the school for social reasons but academically, before she's even started, you consider it beneath you, is patronising in the extreme.

Reading is something to be learnt, yes, but also something to be enjoyed. So let the school do their job, give them the support they ask for and continue to help your child enjoy reading outside of that.

In my experience, the reception children who have the greatest problems are the ones whose parents make it quite clear that they don't think the teachers know what they're doing.

Some of the replies have suggested that the parents came to an agreement with the teachers that other books in the scheme would be more suitable and still others appear to have virtually avoided the scheme altogether, which covers what I've been wondering about perfectly.

How's her writing?

My DD (reception) can read fluently with expression and perfect comprehension and could before starting school. She was zoomed through the reading scheme and now takes her own books in from home to read. However, she still does the daily phonics lessons with her own class (plus a mixed yr1/2 class for writing structure) because, although she could read, she didn't always know which digraphs or trigraphs (is that the right word?) make which sounds so couldn't use them in her writing.

School seem to know what they're doing so I've left them to it rather than become indignant and interfering

Her writing is pretty non-existent. She can write her own name entirely independently such that one may take an educated guess as to what she's written. When she writes with me she writes nicely, but I micromanage every single pencil stroke. Left to her own devices she'd produce a scribble. I can only assume perfect comprehension depends upon what a child is reading! We're reading Lewis Carroll at the moment and I'm not even sure I perfectly comprehend lots of that.