Reading bands and does any of it really matter if the child can already read?

[learnandsay]

My daughter is too young to have encountered a reading band of any colour or type so she's reading ordinary books like The Cat in the Hat, Green Eggs and Ham and Where the Wild Things Are. Of course Dr Seuss' books are already a restricted new-reader vocabulary series of books, which Dr Seuss' associates Flesch and Hersey challenged Seuss aka Ted Geisel to write, in response to a much earlier public panic called Why Johnny Can't read. (I think it's followed up by Why Johnny Still Can't Read. I read up about the debate a while ago when I was learning about the argument between phonics and look and say adherents.)

Essentially what I'm saying is she reads whichever children's books are in the house, with some success and a fair amount of determination, when reading time comes along. Now, my question is this: When she gets to school in September will this continue? Or will she get put on some kind of graded reading system? I've got a strong feeling that if I don't agree with the books the school gives my daughter to read I'll just ignore them and send her into school with what I'd consider proper children's books of the kind you'd buy to read to your children or borrow from the library, not formulaic or bland books for reading learners. (On the other hand, of course, if I like the books and find them interesting and challenging for her, I'll read them with her whether they're part of a reading scheme or not.)

Ah, OK so you've opted for the path of least resistance. We all do that some of the time, and of course it's up to you which battles you pick , but how you set boundaries will teach her about the way she relates to the world and will affect her behaviour at school in one way or another.

If you think she can do things, why not find ways of encouraging her to do these things herself? I'm well aware of how testing children this age can be believe me. Sometimes we tackle things a little bit at a time. e.g. "OK, I'll take you to the loo, but then you can show me how you wipe your bottom. Great, well done! Would you like me to help you wash your hands?" Bit by bit, you gradually get them doing more and more until they do the whole lot themselves. Some children like sticker charts, others like a little bit of competition (see if you can do X before I finish...). Even something as simple as noticing and commenting positively when she does spontaneously do something herself may help (without adding "see you can do it, why don't you do it every time?).

I know one little girl whose mum and dad never followed through on certain things when she was preschool aged and didn't enforce some simple rules on things they said were rules (like getting down from the table for example). Now she's in year 1 and they are having meetings with school because she is unco-operative at school and won't do things she's asked to do. She's learned that rules are optional and it's causing big problems and conflicts, not just at school, but for example when the parents try to get her to do her homework. She's an only child, so no sibs to compete with or encourage her either. She is v bright, but not making the expected progress because she won't follow rules or do what she's asked to, and has trouble fitting in.

Everything pesto said.
And toilet thing, well she is doing it because she can, she demands and you keep giving in, brave it one day just to see how is going to pan out, I bet she will go byself when she really has to.

OP, I've just noticed you have been posting on another thread about year 1 writing.

^I think practice makes perfect. Little and often. Invent a full stops game which you play with discrete words written on separate pieces of card. You place each word in order to make each sentence. And terminate the sentence accordingly with full stop or question mark. And if you get them all right you win a lolly, an ice cream, or whatever.

I play games like this with my daughter all the time. They're not formally part of reading or doing maths but each game reinforces a particular behaviour. My daughter is three, she'll be four soon. The other day we were playing with wooden numbers and she told me that seven plus three equals ten, which she can write out the sum of in mathematical notation. She can't add any other numbers in her head only three and seven and I have no idea why she can do that. I remember that we did high fives quite a few times after I showed her the sum for the first time. I guess it just stuck in her brain. I think if kids enjoy doing something they remember it more.^

You clearly have some successful methods for motivating your DD to learn the academic stuff (although I wouldn't use food myself). Surely you could adapt these games to bring results to other areas, such as mealtimes, going to the toilet independently etc.

Before DS1 started school his teachers said that these were the skills they wanted them equipped with in Reception - reading and writing was their job

sorry - never can get italics to work

Ho hum. Well I find it a bit odd when Mums feed their children over the age of 3, or even 2 for that matter. I would just stop doing this if I were you, especially as she starts school in September.

Honestly, OP if you cannot see the connection between reading and writing and also think your dd can 'add' 7 + 3 when she has clearly just memorised the answer, I really think you should leave the teaching to her teachers. And as for not feeding or toileting herself at this age, you really do have more important issues. These independence skills, along with dressing and undressing, sitting still for assembly, etc are far more important than you teaching her to read at home.

To be frank with you Kitkat you can go and take a running jump dearie. Is it just me, or are number bonds all about remembering what combinations of numbers add up to? Oh yes. They are, aren't they.

What children do at home with mum and dad is can be very different from what they do with comparative strangers. My daughter is very well behaved at nursery and is independent.

This thread has been about what she does at home. If you'd like to make personal attacks on me about some other completely irrelevant topic, say how good my daughter is at flying an aeroplane, then please feel free.

Well I wish you and your DD luck, as I fear you're going to need it.

People have taken the time to give you advice from personal experience of helping their child start school. There is no need to be rude or ungracious.

I suspect you started this thread to brag about how superior a mother you are, what with the intimate knowledge of Dr Seuss and Hegel, and taken umbridge at people not falling over themselves with praise

Actually learnandsay numbers bonds AREN'T just about remembering. They are about a concrete understanding of what the numbers mean in real terms.

You did ask if any of it matters if a child can read. Reading bands are certainly not the the be all and end all, but I think people are just trying to alert you to the fact that reading is about more than being able to say/read/remember the words. Just as school is about more than learning to read and write and count.

The only reason people are bothering replying is that your responses so far seem to be rather dogmatic and that if you don't allow yourself to relax a little you may have a rather tricky introduction to school life in September. If you're not prepared to take on board that school is a 2 way partnership and you remain intent on thinking your own way is best and school can just lump it if you don't like it then you are going to give yourself problems. Having to read to DD so that she can still long enough for you to shovel food in is not happiness in my book. It's a strategy that works for you at home, for now.

Thanks to nearly all of the people who have replied in this thread. The informative and thought through replies I'm really grateful for. The personal attacks and armchair psychology I can do without.

OP, I can understand your worries and questions, but now I've had a child at school for a couple of years, I do think you need to take this a bit less seriously.

My DS struggles with reading and has had some reading books that I consider absolute shite (and my job is related to this area and I do feel qualified to judge!) But it's important to remember that you're working alongside the teacher, and in our case the learning support teacher too, as a team. There will be time to make adjustments to your DD's learning levels and interests. It's not wise to start telling school how to do their job, even if you do know better. Of course Dr Seuss are better books than most reading books - Dr Seuss are classics. The teacher probably knows this too. Sending other books into school and ignoring the scheme she's on will just make you look like a liability to the staff, and isolate your child.

What I actually do is help DS with his books, talk to him about them, and if they are boring or silly, we talk about why and how, and how they could be better. We also discuss why he likes the ones he likes. I encourage him to read other books, plus signs, cereal packets etc. and whatever interests him. In other words I'm playing a role in helping him to think independently and try other things, without actually having to have a conflict with the school, which he would hate.

Also, in my DS's class there is a boy who is way, way ahead with reading and he is given his own separate reading books and targets. School has many faults, and there's a lot I would change, but they do try to assess your child individually and recognise what they need.

A good relationship with school is a partnership and not a war. A combative attitude will cause a huge amount of frustration over the many years your child will be at school.

My DS follows a reading scheme and has always easily read his school reading books. They are an integral part of a literacy programme to help with writing and spelling. I am happy to support school learning and look at supporting my DS in my own way at home.

I agree with Kitkat and shotinfoot and better.

OK, eggrules, look. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. That's why I'm posting in a forum. But what I'd like is an explanation, not a personal attack. No one has suggested a war of any kind. In fact the school that my daughter will most probably be going to has been praised for its parental inclusion and that's one of the reasons I'm happy about it. This thread is about reading schemes not attitudes. I don't have an attitude about reading schemes because I've never been part of one. But I do have an attitude about books because I'm very familiar with them. I have opinions about good books and bad ones, strong opinions and those are not going to change unless somebody can persuade me that what I'd previously considered to be a bad book was actually a good one perhaps for reasons I'd not considered. In some senses the way LadyWord has done. That's what I consider a constructive way to disagree with me and I'm grateful to her. I think what she's saying makes sense. But what some of the other people who have attacked me seem to be saying is back off and let the teachers get on with it. Well, that might be an advertisement for teachers, but it doesn't give me any reason to want to spend time working on books I might not like. Who knows, I might love every book the school sends home. I don't know. The teacher and I might strike up an intimate friendship and run off together. I don't know. I don't know what will happen. But what I'm asking is how much of my time should I spend reading books I don't like with my child? And none of the replies from the people you've said you agree with have explained that to me.

I don't really want irrelevant replies and personal attacks in my thread regardless of how much you might agree with them.

Thanks.

But what I'm asking is how much of my time should I spend reading books I don't like with my child?

About two minutes. There's your answer.

Aaargh! You keep saying you may have an issue if YOU don't like the books on a reading scheme. This is about your daughter learning to read, not you! You say no one has suggested a war of any kind yet in a previous comment you say "I don't think it'll be a huge problem for me. I think it might become more of an issue for the school if it wants me to participate in a reading scheme with my child that I think is ridiculous. I suspect I'd just ignore it." People are trying to make you aware that it is this kind of attitude that will be unco-operative and unhelpful at school. As you say, you haven't yet been involved with a reading scheme, but plenty of people here have and have given you some good advice about why they work (usually!)

You may well read comprehensively and widely with her at home, but you do say she reads with "some success and a fair amount of determination". She should be able to confidently sound out new words that she comes across (NOT guess from context) and read approx 90% of the words she meets easily to be at a level where she can progress comfortably yet still learning new things.

Back to your OP Now, my question is this: When she gets to school in September will this continue? Or will she get put on some kind of graded reading system? Undoubtably yes, although your daughter should be reviewed regularly and adjusted accordingly. Some schools use schemed/graded books all the way up to age 9 or so ( but I'm assuming your daughter isn't yet reading chapter books confidently by herself. She may be reading Dr Suess but she will still be learning!), others move on to free-readers I've got a strong feeling that if I don't agree with the books the school gives my daughter to read I'll just ignore them and send her into school with what I'd consider proper children's books of the kind you'd buy to read to your children or borrow from the library, not formulaic or bland books for reading learners. They may seem bland and dull to you (and often to almost all parents and sometimes to children too) yet they are there to consolidate the written language and sound (phonetic) system we use to decipher reading and writing (On the other hand, of course, if I like the books and find them interesting and challenging for her, I'll read them with her whether they're part of a reading scheme or not.) You probably won't find them that interesting and they shouldn't be too challenging either, she will have enough new things to be dealing with. You can of course, and should, continue to read all sorts of other books too.

And societyClowns has it - although I would go with 15 minutes

Better, the replies in this thread aren't all similar. Some people have indeed replied that they have virtually avoided reading schemes altogether.

I happen to believe that parents are more important in teaching their children how to read, behave, speak, learn, work, and do many other things, that pretty much anybody else on earth. And my daughter is learning to read by reading books that I like. I love Dr Seuss, Where the Wild Things Are and all of the other books that she reads to me. I love hearing her read them too. I'd hate her to read me some unimaginative drudge. And I'd probably not be able to get myself to encourage her to read it to me often because I hated it so much. So, actually, I think any teacher who sends home dull and uninspiring books for my daughter to read isn't doing either her or me any favours. Perhaps the teacher should put a bit more effort into finding a book which achieves her didactic aims and is a bit more interesting and inspiring, rather than trying to bash parents who don't like bad books in Internet fora.

Agree with SocietyClowns, 2 minutes sounds about right. DS couldn't read at all when he started school and that was about the time he took to rattle through the early books. So if your DD is as good as you say she is, it might not even take her that long. Surely not too long to spend on a book you don't actually love.

Weirdly enough my children love that ORT stuff. The books are really dull but you realise that each book teaches a new rule that unfortunately you won't get the hang of via Seuss. They actually always chose to read their banded books as they're getting a lot out of the evident progress. I never really get this 'oh my child's book is too easy for them' angst. If it's not challenging them, whizz through and read what you want. It's not the school's job to identify correctly exactly what the parent wants their child to read.

OP - my DC have enjoyed the vast majority of the books they have brought home from school, even though they are part of a banded reading scheme. Yes, there's been the odd one they haven't, but they've also chosen books from the library and not liked them. And DD has hated books that were DS's favourites at the same age.

Our school reading scheme also includes "real books" so it's not just formulaic reading scheme books (although DS "borrows" DD's reading scheme books as he enjoyed them so much first time round).

For example, both my children are on a reading scheme but DS's current book is "James and the Giant Peach" and DD's is an Usborne book about recycling. I hope you would not dismiss either of those as "dull"?

But if she raced through a book could I really persuade myself that the book had done her any good?

Let's say that the early readers are trying to teach her word sounds. Don't Osbourne Phonics Readers do exactly that, Fox on a Box, Goose on the Loose, and all the rest of them? Those books are great. OK, they're simple, but they're clever, imaginative and they reinforce the sounds by repeating them but in clever combinations. I'm not saying the readers need to be complicated, but I am saying that they need to be free of bland torture and drudgery. Look how marvellously Dr Seuss created his books using a restricted vocabulary of 220 words following the Why Johnny Can't Read controversy in the 1950s.

Is there truly anything that a bland and dull book can do for a child that a more interesting one can't? I don't believe it for a minute.

And I taught my son learnt to read just like that. We read stories together, he looked at books, he knew his favourites and he could read pretty much anything by half way through reception. Clever me, clever him I thought. And then did exactly the same with my DD and hit a complete brick wall. She scores in the top 3% when it comes to cognitive processing ability, visual memory etc and yet still struggles to tell the difference between for and from (yr2). My point is that if your daughter picks it up easily, then she is lucky. And you are lucky. But for about 20% of children it doesn't work that way, which is why reading schemes exist. (By the way they aren't all good - some are quite outdated but that is another story.)

Of course, you are right about parents doing a lot of the teaching ( believe me, the time I've spent researching to help my DD) but teachers have to work within a system. And you will probably have to as well.

Sure, Polly, if my daughter actually tells me that she wants to read it, even if I think it's horrible then we'll read it. (I can't imagine that happening ever. But you never know.)

Yes, even a bland, boring and badly written book has its uses. It will have been written to a certain level with input from reading experts and in this sense it will reinforce what your child needs to learn at that point. It will help your child integrate with his/her class as they read along together, then reinforce at home. And if it's that bad, you can have a laugh at at it, as I and my DS do.

Plus, they really aren't all that terrible. Some have been pants; ORT/Biff and Chip I have found are good, engaging and can be very funny and unexpected.

OP you do come across as a tiny bit superior, but I can relate because I felt like you too. I know books, I work in a bookish world and I despaired at the thought of the reading scheme rubbish my DS might have to cope with. But honestly, truly, I've realised I don't know it all. Teaching children to read can happen in more ways than one. The school method and the home sessions can complement each other.

Yes, especially at primary, the education you provide at home is the most important thing, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to throw your weight around with the school. It really, really isn't. Save that for if they do something really bad like fail to deal with bullying etc.

When your DD starts school, tread carefully and hold your counsel, get the lie of the land and be shrewd. You are in a much, much better position to get what you want and get listened to, if you are not someone who has a reputation for kicking off over little things.

OK, ladyword, but we're digressing from the subject of reading schemes and reading books when we spread into the area of dealing with school/parent politics. In my case I'm not actually anticipating any problems at all in the teacher-parent interaction because the school that my daughter will probably be going to has a terrific parental inclusion policy and parents are regularly invited into the school to attend fora and discussions. They've even built a classroom for parents!

So I don't anticipate any problems in that area. In fact I'm very pleased about it.

But on the whole I'd rather this thread concentrated on books and reading schemes rather that school-parent politics because that's what I'm worried about.

But thanks for your contributions. I've really appreciated them.