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Primary education

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Original poster

The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

338 replies

Lokova · 02/03/2012 20:07

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

OP posts:
JoannaPancake · 04/03/2012 20:47

Totally agree with Seeker on this one. I think it's very important that my DC learn about religion(s) but fail to see why they should have to participate in 'worship' by default. Never bothered to pull them out of it and they've already decided that they don't believe. Did feel the need to step in when I heard that an outside body were running some sort of happy clappy club at lunchtimes- and giving the kids sweets if they attended Shock

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 20:49

You didn't have to insist -you were just politely asked and politely refused.
I don't know if they still do it. I know my mother has had a chaplain come to a ward and do a service for those that wanted it.

We are not living in a secular society-if people realised it then the secular society would get more support see here. They don't get the support because people don't understand the situation.

You must live in a different place to me because, although I agree that not many people attend church, there are plenty of young people who do. We are all different-and different to our parents. My cousin is an atheist-her DS (never taken to church) is a regular church goer and bases his whole social life around the church-her DD is an atheist and won't go near a church. My cousin has a good relationship with both-why should personal beliefs change it?
We are all free to choose for ourselves. We do not have to follow parents or teachers.

dizzyday07 · 04/03/2012 21:01

I too would prefer my DD to not have to "participate" in religion at school. My DH - who although believes in God doesn't attend church - sees no problem in in!

The one thing that was highlighted in the recent Ofsted visit was that there wasn't enough inclusion of other religious knowledge being taught. I believe that if a wide range of views are not taught to our kids then how can they ever grow up to be tolerant of all in our society?

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 21:18

I don't think that anyone is complaining about religious education-you need it to understand history, art, literature, current affairs-they should be getting all major religions so Ofsted, quite rightly, picked up on it. Collective worship is quite different -and I don't think it has a place in schools.

BonfireOfKleenex · 05/03/2012 11:13

I hope the OP is still reading as it's interesting how the tone of this thread has changed since the start.

At the beginning lots of people saying 'what on earth are you making such a fuss about?', 'what's the big deal?' etc. Also some rather dubious assumptions about the OP being from another country and therefore their reservations about worship in schools being due to not appreciating 'our culture'.

betterwhenthesunshines · 05/03/2012 12:14

My personal belief is that religion is just a vehicle for you to come to terms with your own humanity. That's not what my parents, or my brother, believe - they believe in the reality of a divine God. Or my DH ( who thinks it's all nonsense, despite his RC upbringing.)

Children will make up their own mind, but the principles of awareness of your fellow man, consideration for others, a sense of humility etc are fairly consistent across most religions. They just have different 'trappings' and ways of celebrating. But these are important ideas to introduce to children; it doesn't have to be in a particulary religious way but they are difficult concepts and a 'God' figure is perhaps easier to explain than a full on existential discussion :)

AChristmasCarole · 05/03/2012 12:25

The song he has been taught is an inclusive one: 'My God is good', not 'God is good', so covers everyone except non-believers.

seeker · 05/03/2012 12:29

Inclusive- so long as you have a god. Hmm. Some new definition of "inclusive" I haven't come across before!

lambethlil · 05/03/2012 12:30

So home educate, or withdraw him from assembly, or start up a free school.

BonfireOfKleenex · 05/03/2012 12:43

"So home educate, or withdraw him from assembly, or start up a free school."

Home educating or starting your own school are hardly realistic and practical options for most people.

And assembly should be ALL ABOUT feeling included and part of the school. Not being made to sit in another room and feel different.

lambethlil · 05/03/2012 12:48

bBonfire, I agree, so the OP should think about whether she really wants to go to the line on this one, or just balance what she sees as indoctrination by telling him what she believes.

BonfireOfKleenex · 05/03/2012 12:57

But it still puts the child in the position of being in a 'congregation' they may not feel part of.

Congregations don't belong in schools, and a parent shouldn't be in the position of having to 'counteract' what teachers are teaching.

BonfireOfKleenex · 05/03/2012 12:59

Sorry, my last post refers to the position that many people end up taking - they decide that on balance taking the child out of the assembly would do more harm than good.

seeker · 05/03/2012 14:19

Nobody has yet satisfactorily explained to me why the education system is the only state provided service that you have to be at least a nominal Christian to access fully. You don't have to pray before they take you appendix out- or even sit quietly and respectfully while the other patients do!

bemybebe · 05/03/2012 18:24

"Nobody has yet satisfactorily explained to me why the education system is the only state provided service that you have to be at least a nominal Christian to access fully. You don't have to pray before they take you appendix out- or even sit quietly and respectfully while the other patients do!"

A bloody good question!

exoticfruits · 05/03/2012 19:07

If you wanted to pray before you had your appendix out I expect that you could request a visit from the chaplain and you would expect the other patients to be quiet and respectful! Grin

bemybebe · 05/03/2012 19:13

Yeah, but this is not compulsory in the way that holding the acts of worship is compulsory at schools.

exoticfruits · 05/03/2012 19:28

It was 'tongue in cheek'. Don't just moan-do something-join the secular society and fight for change.

seeker · 05/03/2012 21:15

But nobody would tell me I have my appendix out til prayers had been Sadi!

Do!'t worry, exotic, my campaigning muscle gets exercised regularly in of life!

seeker · 05/03/2012 21:17

Typos. Please unscramble at your discretion!

lambethlil · 05/03/2012 21:22

Op said This is very wrong. We should not be in this position. Its obviously a very strongly held opinion, (and one I agree with BTW), but the status quo is that collective worship is compulsory. I was being entirely serious that she could HE or withdraw.

Those are options, but whether she chooses to take them up is up to her.

exoticfruits · 05/03/2012 22:10

Collective worship in schools is not compulsory and parents have the right to withdraw their DC. The solution seems simple to me-since it seems that no one like it-you go around the playground and get everyone to withdraw their DC and then the odd ones are the ones in assembly.
I suspect that most people are completely apathetic or like it. It isn't something that bothers me. I choose my battles in schools -and that isn't one of them.

seeker · 05/03/2012 22:32

It's not something to battle in school- it's something that any right thinking person whoo actually thinks about it for two minutes would agree should be dropped from the legislation. Can anyone, honestly, come up with a sensible reason for keeping it in?

seeker · 05/03/2012 22:33

And obviously it's jot compulsory. But why should I make my child conspicuous or insist that they miss an important part of the school day because ot this entirely insane praying thing?

exoticfruits · 06/03/2012 07:22

It won't go away by itself. This subject crops up every few weeks on MN, it will probably be aired again around Easter. Most times I post a link to the secular society, who are fighting for change, and yet I doubt if anyone does anything positive- they just moan.
I also don't understand why it takes people by surprise. If they went to school in the UK they must have had hymns and prayers themselves-why do they imagine it changed? All I can suppose is that they went to a faith school and imagined it was different for those of us who didn't. In actual fact there is little difference between a faith school and non denominational school.