Is it hard being minority posh kid at inner London school?

[saucypan]

I'm not someone who wants my kids to go to a middle class socially cleansed school in London - I want them to have a proper mix that represents the community they live in. But what do the wise women of MN have to say about schools - good, vibrant, successful, but in very deprived areas. Is it hard to be the only white middle class kid in the class - or one of very few?

"good, vibrant, successful, but in very deprived areas."
I think your first problem would be to find one that covers all these bases. And the second might be how to prevent your 'nice MC' child from trying hard to fit in...

Define 'very deprived'?

Some people thought dds' school, when dd1 first started there, had a 'very deprived' cohort and would shudder at the thought of sending their children there - but dh and I knew instantly it was the right place for dd, and for us as parents, and also that the school itself was full of promise. We were right, and both dds are there now - interestingly, the incoming cohort has changed massively in just 4 years and the people who shuddered are no longer shuddering .

That said: dd1 is not the only white middle class child in her class, although she is one of very few (middle class) and 50/50 (white) and has the biggest house etc. Its only around the age of 8 that the kids themselves have even started noticing and talking about the external differences - with interest, nothing negative - as the girls in her class are pretty bonded and happy, and have plenty in common. And I have made some fantastic friends, and love the community we have become part of.

"I'm not someone who wants my kids to go to a middle class socially cleansed school in London - I want them to have a proper mix that represents the community they live in"

Speaking as someone who went to a school in a deprived part of the Midlands, I was glad to get out of there and into a middle class socially cleansed part of Hertfordshire. Feck the 'proper mix'.

I'm with Elibean. We're not in London (although, hello Londoners, other places do have inner cities and deprivation), but irespects my kids are in a good vibrant successful school in a deprived area. There aren't that many middle class kids (although actually the school is more mixed than I thought it might be -- and so might yours be).

It is true that my kids have tended to make close friendships with other middle class children in the school (and I've tended to make close friends with their mums). But that hasn't been exclusively the case, and in general the school has a warm, inclusive and cohesive atmosphere. They know everyone and everyone knows them, and as we come into and out of school there are lots and lots of shouts of 'hi ds1' and 'hi ds2'.

And it's great that my kids know lots of people in our area. In years to come they'll know they come from somewhere they're really rooted in, they'll have walked to school for years around the streets and will have lots of associations with the place. It won't be a backdrop for the place they sleep, and which they only see through car windows as they are ferried to somewhere more 'desirable'.

Go and look at your local school, and see how it feels. You may well be amazed by how much you like it.

I'd choose on a school and how much money we've got as a family basis. I wouldn't send my children to an unsuitable school because of my philosophy! You could always send them to a suitable school and do educational philosophy as a part time night school class. But not use real children as a test case.

Philosophy no. Values, well, yes - they play a part. Especially in primary, where (to my mind) a lot of what its about is living, social skills, understanding the world - as well as learning.

I wouldn't have chosen our school on my values alone, obviously - but they play a part. Not in a heady, thought-about sort of way so much as in an instinctive 'I love this place, its a good place, its a happy place' sort of way.

If I thought for a minute my kids would be unhappy there, I wouldn't choose it.

Learnandsay, I wouldn't send my children to an unsuitable school because of my philosophy. In my case that would mean sending them to some middle class reservation/exam factory (aka private school). Your principles are what you live by -- otherwise they wouldn't actually be your principles, would they?

But just because I want my children to go to a mixed, local school it doesn't mean I don't care about their education. Quite the reverse, as an education professional myself I am extremely committed to it.

OP, there isn't any substitute for going to schools yourself with an open mind.

Hmm, my granddad kept all his daughters at home with personal tutors and a governess because he didn't agree with the principle of schooling. He thought it was indoctrination. (Which I suppose it is.) My personal opinion is that his daughters all turned out weirdly and semi-uneducated, (but posh) partly as a result.

thanks all. we're at a lovely mixed school at the moment, all colours and creeds but with a 30-40% mc intake which, honestly, makes me feel very comfortable and at home. It's the perfect mix for me. Most of my kids friends are otehr mc kids but not all. We're looking at moving to an area it would be affordable to get a house and the local school is quite buzzy, v creative curriculum and very nice, but v different mix - my kids would be in a marked minority, possibly one of two or three or even only one in some classes. My pref is our current school but where we live is no longer working, so it's balancing it all out...

Like others my philosophy and principles are bound up with what I think is right for my kids - plus all the practicalities of other parts of life. I wouldn't feel comfortable in a private or uber mc setting - I do like more of a mix - but the new school might be the other extreme...

learnandsay - How lovely! I'd love to be a semi-educated, posh eccentric.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108465/Rising-numbers-private-pupils-forced-tough-state-schools-parents-struggle-afford-fees.ht

Bloody hell Judging by some of the comments on here, I'm glad some of you don't go anywhere near my son's school - not that you would be the sounds of things.

OP, my son goes to local, very mixed inner city as it's our closest and we liked it because it's kind, fun and creative. I wanted him to have local friends and he's happy and thriving there. Thinking about it I've just realised he's the only white boy in his class atm - his best friends are Chinese, Turkish, Vietnamese and Portuguese. They all speak different languages at home and most of them live on Estates. Does it matter? No. He's getting a fantastic education in every sense and the kids are a lovely lot with very aspirational parents. DS has never been teased and certainly doesn't feel like the odd one out. The key thing is the school itself and how it feels. Go visit and if it's warm, friendly and teaches the kids well, go for it.

I had a miserable time at one state school (rural) that I attended. I had a double-barrelled surname and a cut-glass accent. I was branded as rich, posh and snobby and both ostracised and picked on.

My parents probably were richer than theirs, but at the time my father was out of work and incredibly ill with Hep B (caught by cutting himself operating on a patient in the developing world country he had been working in) and we were living with my grandmother because we didn't have a house. I certainly didn't have a pony or designer clothes etc.

In the end my parents took me away after 2 terms and home-schooled me until they could find and afford a private school.

I wouldn't say to not do it, but you might want to have a back-up plan just in case.

I also think that schools are much more aware these days and keep an eye out for unpleasantness (or am I deluding myself?)

Sorry you had a hard time, Pyrrah, but it does depend on the school and you're right good schools these days are hugely inclusive and stamp on unpleasantness.

There was also an undercurrent of hostility in my school of me being "posh" - I spose I was in the context of others in my class back then but not in other circles - we weren't rich but we weren't cockney - and I think it did affect me a bit in terms of self-esteem. I gather schools are better at social inclusion on all levels these days but I don't want my kids to feel uncomfortable with their backgrounds as I did a bit. That was more white wc vs mc tho rather than ethnic diversity.

Back then EVERYONE (in my world anyway) just went to local school and thought no more about it. I envy that in a way. We're bombarded with information and it's demanded of us to have strong opinions about what we think is best. Sometimes I think that's a bit crippling.

Blimey saucypan, how do you measure that they are 30% middle class (visions of someone wielding a questionnaire checking the paint in their houses is Farrow&Ball. the lack of presence of a certain brand of sausage rolls on the family diet etc)

:) metamorphosis, by getting to know the kids in their classes and making friends with their parents and making a judgement like we all do! but twas a v nonscientific guestimate for purposes of this thread - hadn't analysed it like that before.

Fair dos.

Dc used to go to a school where we didn't fit in, how can I put it 'socio-economically'. It didn't bother me but there were things in our life I couldn't talk about with other parents because it would have been like rubbing it in, some gawping at our house when people came round (I never judged theirs and don't give two hoots where anyone lives) and some awkwardness - reverse snobbery I suppose.

It wouldn't put me off if a school was great in other ways though.

Well, if you're the one with the big house the size of other people's houses probably isn't a concern.

But if you go to a school where everybody else lives in a mansion with a pool and you live with your mum in a caravan, and got in on a scholarship, it's probably an issue for you.

That's possibly true - harder the other way round - but I'd have liked it if they didn't make judgements about me based on my accent or lifestyle.

Sorry for confusion just name changed!

But that is half the problem, learnandsay...

It often seems that it's fine to poke fun or make unpleasant comments to a child because they have a bigger house (or whatever) whereas there would be a total outcry if a child was being made to feel uncomfortable because they lived in a one bed council flat.

Believe me it is just as hurtful - no child is responsible for what their parents do or do not have.

And when you see comments here that suggest that it isn't as important an issue that a child is being teased for having more (aw diddums, they can console themselves at ponyclub) is it any wonder that parent who might well believe in state education find themselves wondering if their child might not be happier in the private sector or at any rate a school full of PLU.

For me as a child it wasn't about having more money - we didn't- but we were quite cultured, and spoke differently, and going to school on the edge of a rough working class estate i had to learn a kind of inverse snobbery to survive. I regret that aspect of it because I think I know less because of it and wasted a lot of energy feeling self-conscious when I could have been learning and enjoying stuff. Also teachers had to spend a lot of their time dealing with disruption rather than teaching, but that was more at secondary.

The situation for my kids would be different. They would be the ones in the big house. The school sounds more like yours Smee - great curriculum and lively ideas - and my sense is that a multicultural school is a bit different in its difference to the class divides in white Britain in the 70s. And I sense that the pastoral care in schools is so different now and that there is ??less alienation from education??

re philosphy vs practice, my philosophy is wtf are we scared of? these are all just lovely children hungry for life and ready to be shaped by great education into great adults. re practice there is such fear and anxiety about education and i've got sucked into that. Slightly against my better judgement if I'm honest. All the stats say education only makes 10% of difference to homelife anyway, esp at primary stage. But, they are there 6 hours a day 5 days a week so you gotta like it. (contradicting myself wildly I know - but if I was clear about what I thought I wouldn't have posted in first place!)

You sound great, saucy. My ds1 is in a school like this (I think), maybe slightly more mc kids, lower mc anyway (not farrow and ball, but parents are ed psychs, consultants, teachers etc.). There are about 3-4 in each class. I've actually found that some of these 'mc' kids can be really cruel. To be honest, some of the other kids are very, very bright but seem a lot kinder - perhaps they don't have 'competitive parents' and feel the need to constantly prove themselves. Often kids from ethnic backgrounds have very supportive parents so the school may be in a deprived area, but actually be doing well. Our school has more than 80% ESL, but we have a good PTA and lots of involved parents who are not English or mc. I actually feel more drawn to them, there's far less bitchiness or cliquiness! I would look at things like that in your new school. A lot of the Asian and East European kids are really well brought up, kind, polite, supported educationally etc.

saucy, I have no doubt - reading your posts - that you will make a good decision for your kids, and yourself as involved parent

And I think, as Smee said, its more to do with what you feel about a particular school, and the adults and kids in it, than any percentages or demographics. Maybe helpful to you to rummage around in those, but then step back and just see how you feel - and how the important things stand: good pastoral care, good teaching, strong values, happy kids, community spirit, etc.

Is it possible to meet and chat with some of the existing parents there?? I totally understand the clash of values and herd-induced anxiety, and my solution to getting through the anxiety part was to talk to people, form connections etc - be it by visiting to talk to the Head or by getting the one parent I knew there to introduce me to a few people, invite me along to sports day, etc.

I'm all for trusting one's instincts, but its good to have back-up