Should I speak to the teacher?

[skewiff]

DS started school in September. He's in reception.

I got called into the class room once at the beginning of term by the teacher and she told me in front of DS what he'd been in trouble for. I didn't like her manner at the time. It was bullying and she was aggressively saying to my son over and over, look at me. He was looking away at the wall.

Today the same thing happened. DS had said he didn't want to help tidy up in the morning and then said that he wouldn't put his coat on in the playground to her.

This time she was telling me what he had done and he was smiling (I am sure it was nerves and fear). She aggressively kept saying 'stop smiling, its not funny' - but he kept on smiling. Then she was bending down - again - saying look at me, look at me.

I felt so told off (even though it was DS being told off). I felt nervous and intimidated.

The trouble is she is the most experienced teacher in reception at the school. She is the one that trains the other teachers.

I want to go and speak to her and say that I didn't like the way in which she spoke to DS. And that speaking to him in that way is not the way to get the best out of him. It just puts his back up.

Am I being oversensitive?

Yes, maybe you can use this incident as a springboard to have that discussion? I think that for your peace of mind and your son's well being you really need to be able to get to know his teacher and work in partnership with the school on meeting his needs. My feeling with schools is that unless as a parent you put yourself forward and make it really clear that you want to be fully engaged that they assume that you want to leave it all to them. Watching the teachers interactions with other staff members (the SENCO, head etc) will also give you a better idea of whether she is fundamentally a good person that you feel you can trust, or if your son really needs to be somewhere else. The relationship between child and teacher in reception is I think foundational to how they approach school for many years to come.

She was asking your son to look at her in the hope that he would be listening properly. What if the teacher was instructing the child to go outside because there was a fire alarm? Would you expect him to obey then?

I think there are now two separate issues

As far as expecting your son to follow school routines and tidy up when asked/wear his coat and look at his teacher when she is speaking to him I consider the teacher to be right.

As far as your son missing the first hour of the day for physio because the school is failing to provide for his statement they are wrong.

I don't consider the school to be wrong for DS missing the first hour of school. I suggested it. They did not offer for the physio to be done at school. They don't have anyone to do the physio. BUT I would prefer to do it myself. I have high standards and it pays off. My son has moved on in what he is able to do because I make sure that each exercise is done properly every day. I don't think that a TA would have as much interest as his mum in doing this.

Yes I agree that a meeting needs to be made and that this is a good opportunity to ask for one again - more strongly this time.

I suppose - if anything - I have been keeping a distance (as I assumed they wanted me to, they didn't seem keen on me asking too many questions, and other parents say that communication between teachers and parents is not really encouraged in this school) because I have been scared about them changing their mind about DS starting late in the morning. It is so essential to his development that I would be very upset if, for this year at least, it was taken away. I don't expect them to OK it for Yr 1, so need to get as much done now whilst we can.

Gosh no! You are in a much stronger position than you think!

As a teacher, I would recommend that you your polite respect but do push far more than you have been. Question everything you don't understand or don't feel is quite right. Your son has a right to the physio and the school has an obligation in law to provide it, so you are, in fact, doing the school a favour!! They would not chnage their mind about the late start unless they really wanted to bring themselves a whole heap of problems.

mrs is right (again! ) in that the behaviour must be treated separated from the SEN (and I think you know that from a previous post you made)

But do keep in mind that you have absolutely every right to expect the statemnet to be fully met by the school!

'you maintain your...'

Hi Skewiff, i could have written your post myself except my DS doesnt start reception until Sept 2012. He has left hemi due to brain damage at birth and prem delivery followed by complications. We also no longer have him in a non supportive nursery unlike you seem to have with your school.
Have you posted on the SN board? They have been a fantastic help to me making sure DS gets exactly what support he needs in nursery and the correct preperation for school next year. I had no idea what i was doing. It might be worth a post.
Ds has very similar issues to yours in that he will not comply to the bits of the day that he doesnt get any enjoyment out of which is the tidying, wearing his hat/coat when needed and sitting for periods of time but they have had to integrate completely different teaching methods. He has a visual timeline and they have to use pecs because he just doesnt understand the importance of following everyone else or understand the emotions of others. I cant understand why your DS doesnt have any 1:1 support when you have a statement in place or maybe i misunderstood. We get additional funding for DS to pay for his support but no statement and they manage to do 1:1 for certain parts of the day.
I would feel the same as you but would be making an appointment to discuss with the senco asap what support you need. Surely they must understand that the pathways of learning can be slightly different with children with CP and they dont process information the same sometimes or react as you would expect to situations, ie the smiling when told off. I would go mad if anyone demanded DS looked them in the eye, its part of his thing that he wont, even with me at times even though he is getting better.
I do DS's physio in the morning as well because he is far more compliant so totally understand where you are coming from.
Goodluck and post on the SN board for advice. They gave me the confidence to question what was on offer within the nursery and life is so much better for me and more importantly DS.
It might be a question of your DS just being defiant but i would want everything else ruled out before that assumption was made and then move forward to tackling it.
Sorry, i've rambled on

Thank you mishy mashy,

You haven't rambled at all. It was a relief to read your post, because I realise that you probably understand better than anyone where I am coming from.

I should have posted on SN in the first place, but I am used to not thinking of my son in SN terms really - I feel like he is doing so well, compared to what he used to be like ...

However this discussion has made me realise that my worries/issues probably have more to do with his hemiplegia than I thought.

I am really interested in how you are so certain about the way hemiplegia affects your son's behaviour. How are you so sure? Has a doctor told you or a behavioural psych? Our local one has been useless.

I agree with you OP, but feel that you need to talk sensitively to your ds to defuse the situation, and possibly discuss it sensitively with the teacher.

Poor little kid - he's only 4 and not well. Learning how to behave and follow instructions is part of what they should be being taught at that age - they're still learning. Still, probably just slightly harassed teacher rather than deliberate bullying on her part.

It was blatantly obvious to us there was something very wrong with DS as he was so lopsided! At 17 months he was officially diagnosed with left hemi and put on the early interventions programme which inc physio, OT, portage, Salt and an inclusion officer for when he was getting ready to start nursery. I will say, its definately not been an easy ride because we were so clueless with how the system works and some of the services have been next to useless especially Salt but thats when i run to the SN board. I read all the posts that are relevant and ask when needed.
Our paed went through everything with us as DS was much slower in all of his milestones, we even had little diagrams of the brains pathways when we were sent on a total communications course which helped us to understand why he struggles with learning the conventional way. We had an assesment done and his visual skills were 2 years ahead but eveything else was 12/18 months delayed which was a massive shock to us but gave the paed the information she needed to help us and inform all the Health professionals work with him with more success. They did think he was autistic as his response was very limited and speech but i think they are moving away from that as he responds so much better with all the visual cues and props they use and is becoming very sociable. He is still behind especially with receptive language and doesnt understand what is expected of him unlike his peers but his new nursery have been told what they need to do which will follow on to his school placement hopefully. Portage/OT/Area Senco and EP are in and out of the nursery about every 6 months to monitor his progress and keep us semi informed of how his development is going. I'm sure if DS hadnt been diagnosed with Hemi from the scans then we would have had the ASD diagnosis but our paed told us that the neurological damage can mirror traits from other issues hence why they waited to rule ASD out, which is proving correct as the older he gets the less likely it looks to be the cause. The pathways that have been damaged along with the left mobility are some of the communication and copying skills which is apparently common with hemi as they dont process information the same. Have you been on the hemi help website??
I often wonder if DS is deliberately wilfull and defiant but when i see the difference in his behaviour when everyone uses the additional visuals inc Makaton, i realise its just part of his hemi. Information is going in but just in a different way and a bit slower.
We have a great Paed thank goodness! She has been invaluable so has portage and the EP. They help us understand him
Can you get a referral to a different paed? it might be a start.
Wow, that was long!!
Sorry!!!

Well we never get to see a paed. But an appointment has been booked for December as DS may have botox in his left hand.

Since DS was diagnosed at 6 months we have done tonnes of mad therapies all of which have brought him on immensely. So today you cannot really tell immediately that he has hemiplegia - but you can when you look hard and the tell tell signs are in the way he runs and when he is trying to do things that require 2 hands.

However he is so so competent and independent that this is why, I think, school have been sure that he is fine and OK.

We have never had a brain scan. The MRI went traumatically when he was 1 year old and we didn't want to put anyone through that again. All the professionals agreed that DS had hemiplegia from his physical symptoms. We could see that he was progressing and thought if he started to go backwards or if there were signs of epilepsy then we would try for another MRI. Thankfully these things have not happened.

So without knowing exactly where DS's brain has been damaged and without seeing neuros and paeds regularly (they have kind of abandoned us because DS is doing so well) ... I haven't explored the behavioural impact of hemiplegia.

DS's language was very delayed but with 2 therapies it came on very rapidly and now he is not always clear and he dribbles, but really, cognitively, he is at a similar level to his peers.

I do wonder sometimes because he loves playing with younger children and sometimes he does seem a bit immature - but then an instant later he seems wiser than his years. So it is really difficult to tell.

I will ask the Senco whether he could be assessed again by an educational psychologist. Perhaps this is a way forward.

Thank you again for all your advice and help.

Just a quickie this time!! If the senco isnt keen on putting your DS forward for assessment with the EP because it comes out of the school budget or any other excuse then ask the paed when you have your Dec appointment. Ours tends to request what she wants and nobody argues!!
Your Ds sounds so similar esp with the clarity of speech and dribbling aswell. Ds is also classed as mild hemi.
Goodluck and dont forget the SN board. X

"OK this is very true. But can you tell me how you achieve this when you are not actually present in the classroom?"

This is where you are going to have to trust the teacher to discipline him- and he has to know (from your body language when you are with the teacher as much as from anything you say) that you are behind the school.

I'd definitely have him assessed if I were you, but at the same time I would be wary of not enforcing the essentials in manners because he struggles with his SN- as long as his SN do not actively prevent him from learning manners (in which case you need the medical professional to write to the school and explain how he is affected).

I do know where you are coming from- having two children with mobility problems and chronic pain - but I keep telling myself that thought my dcs have a harder life than most, that doesn't mean they are going to need social skills any less. If anything they are going to need them more because they will need to get other people on their side.

(As dd told me once when I was reminiscing about my own difficulties in engaging with my peers in primary school: "well, you could afford that")

So I have always been quite strict about manners.

Otoh I think it is important that you let the school know how exhausted he will be after a morning of physio and ask if there is any way in which they can let him break in gently to the rest of the day's work.

skewiff if your child has a statement he should have an annual review of it in school with you and the SENCO and all professionals involved invited and required to provide an up to date report. Professionals would include the paediatrician, Occupational therapy service, SaLT

Personally I wouldn't be giving a 4 yr old the choice of refusing to do what you've asked - you said in one of your earlier posts that if your ds doesn't want to do something you don't do it and maybe do something else first. Difficult then to expect him to do as he is told, with no choice, at school.

For a NT child I would expect eye contact and doing what he is told. Don't know about a child with your ds's SNs. If that is the reason why he does not make eye contact or do what he is asked then it would be worthwhile having a meeting with his teacher and the SENCO so work out how his behaviour can be managed in class.

When ds was younger he was deliberately getting into trouble in class. His teacher and SENCO decided to keep him in at break time to finish off classwork. I refused permission for them to do this as this was simply letting him do what he wanted - he wanted to avoid going out at breaktime. There was a reason for that and I ensured that this was addressed first. Once that was done ds's behaviour improved.

I would expect a SN child to look at me not necessarily to make eye contact

I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to teach a 4 year old to blindly obey with no negotiation/discussion at all.

I have been in a couple of situations (driving past a fatal car accident and getting the children quickly away from the potential start of trouble) when I have had to give them instructions which they have had to just do as I say without knowing why and without questioning.

Establishing eye contact is very important, I really would work on backin up the teacher and perhaps implementing a few of her strategies at home.

Migrating coconuts: -

If you are still reading ... am I really doing the school a favour?

The reason I am worried is that in the statement it says that the school should be doing a physio session daily and its mentioned about 1-1 support and small group support etc. It also says they should be doing a speech and language session daily, I think - but we don't actually even do speech and language at home as SALT don't see DS now.

Anyway, as I said before, we pay to see an OT monthly. She sets us a routine of exercises, which alongside other things that I have collected over time makes up an hour.

It would be hard to get someone other than me to teach these to a TA - as the OT works far away from us. But also as the statement says nothing like 'DS should have an hour of physio a day' and as the stuff we do comes from a private practitioner and not the NHS - I feel worried that if I rock the boat too much the school might say to me that the physio session I do is nonessential and must be taken away.

I hope that makes sense ...

I really do think that the role the school plays in meeting this statement should be very clear to you and also to the school. Its coming across to me that you do not have this clear idea at all; and that the school is remiss in not communicating how they intend to meet your son's needs.

Whatever the statement says is what the school is duty bound to provide and they cannot change that and they would have to go to incredible lengths to proove that they couldn't meet the needs of the statement in an appeal to county. They cannot say that anything in the statement is nonessential..they do not have that authority!

At the moment, from what you have said, they do not appear to be meeting the statement as it is set out. The fact that you are able to provide some of it in other ways is good for the school!

I am not a senco myself and so am not expert in this, but i do know as a teacher that, with a statement such as this you are entitled to expect the support it sets out.

What i'm trying to say is that if they try to say that your physio is nonessential, then they would have to provide physio in its place. That would require training (as you have said) and timetabling into a day and space. It may not have to last an hour but it would still have to be provided, paid for and so, yes, you are providing them with the expertise and helping them out!!

He doesn't have the option of saying no to his teachers, and you're doing him a real disservice by not making sure he's completely clear on that one. Also, refusing to look at someone when you're being spoken to is plain rude, whether you're 4 or 40. You seem to be actively undermining the teacher which will do your son no good in the long run.

I think mishymashy is right...do go and post on the Sn board as they can give you clearer advice on what your rights and expectations should be given the statement he has.

I have done that now. Thank you everybody and goodbye.

I am a SENCO and the school should be providing for your child's needs. If it says in his statement that they should provide 1-1 then that is what they should do. If it says they should deliver physio then that is what they should do ... they should also review his needs with you because needs do change as you say he no longer needs SaLT.

But mrz - if they have someone helping him 1-1 to get dressed after PE and someone to help him carry his tray at lunch and someone to do a few bits and bobs throughout the day (this someone is never the same person, but it is a person 1-1) can they say that they are fulfilling the statement that way?

I agree that this is less than ideal. My difficulty with this version of the statement is that each different person is helping in a different way and is not fully versed on what DS's problem is.

So, for example, one person I know for definite who helps DS referred to his affected hand as his 'bad' hand and talked to DS saying 'please use your bad hand'. This is not what we want at all. We need people to help DS see his CP in a positive way and we strive to achieve that. However it is hard to communicate this to a large group of people. I have sent in notes requesting that everybody be told what we are striving for- but who knows whether they all have received it.

I am arranging a meeting with the SENCO and teacher tomorrow. It probably won't be for a few days, at least. But could you let me know whether they can get away with the 1-1 thing in the way they are delivering it at the moment?

Thank you.