Should I speak to the teacher?

[skewiff]

DS started school in September. He's in reception.

I got called into the class room once at the beginning of term by the teacher and she told me in front of DS what he'd been in trouble for. I didn't like her manner at the time. It was bullying and she was aggressively saying to my son over and over, look at me. He was looking away at the wall.

Today the same thing happened. DS had said he didn't want to help tidy up in the morning and then said that he wouldn't put his coat on in the playground to her.

This time she was telling me what he had done and he was smiling (I am sure it was nerves and fear). She aggressively kept saying 'stop smiling, its not funny' - but he kept on smiling. Then she was bending down - again - saying look at me, look at me.

I felt so told off (even though it was DS being told off). I felt nervous and intimidated.

The trouble is she is the most experienced teacher in reception at the school. She is the one that trains the other teachers.

I want to go and speak to her and say that I didn't like the way in which she spoke to DS. And that speaking to him in that way is not the way to get the best out of him. It just puts his back up.

Am I being oversensitive?

I have actually very strongly considered home schooling. I would love to home school in fact.

However DS really enjoys school. I think, at the moment, he gets a lot from it. Because of his physical disabilities he is better off in school, I think. Because other children encourage him (just by him wanting to keep up) to do things that I would never be able to get him to do. So physically he is progressing faster at school than he would be at home.

However if there is ever a time where he is unhappy or I feel that he is not progressing well at school, I will, if he wants, home educate.

A teacher asking a child to look at her while she speaks to him is not being rude or bullying. A mainstream child who refuses to look at her after being asked, and smiling whether due to nerves or not is the rude one.

Teachers are no longer draconian nightmares: they ask children to do what is required in order to educate them. They are not bullies.

Your DS is part of a class of children, and you need to ensure that he co-operates as part of the team he is in, follows instructions, and is well behaved. SEN should be taken into consideration, but not used as an excuse for general unruliness.

The refusal to put his coat on took place at lunch time play - after lunch. It was morning play that he missed.

Your DS is part of a class of children, and you need to ensure that he co-operates as part of the team he is in, follows instructions, and is well behaved. SEN should be taken into consideration, but not used as an excuse for general unruliness

Exactly. He'd been defiant both in the morning and again at lunch time. I think she's behaved perfectly reasonably.

I wasn't using his SEN as an excuse. That is why I was happy to not mention it in the first place.

I don't know how you can say that teachers are no longer draconian nightmares or bullies - Likeacandle - how do you know what ALL teachers are like?

some children smile when they are uncomfortable / in trouble - it's a nervous reaction - surely she is aware of this

I'd man up a bit - she should be working with you to support your child so go see her when your child is not there and speak to her about him

I think you are being oversensitive. He isn't outrageously naughty but she did need to have a word with him and he does need to learn to do as he is told on a basic tidy up/look at me level. I don't agree with blind obedience in everything but she wasn't telling him to run with scissors or snort cocaine and I do think if your teacher tells you do do something basic and reasonable and you don't do it then she is entitled to repeat herself and tell you off.

Your DS is part of a class of children, and you need to ensure that he co-operates as part of the team he is in, follows instructions, and is well behaved.

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OK this is very true. But can you tell me how you achieve this when you are not actually present in the classroom?

I repeat and repeat things to DS, but I don't know what effect it is having as I'm not in the class to see.

We have gone for about 5/6 weeks without me hearing a peep from the teacher. So I have assumed that he has been getting on fine and being 'good'.

But how do I know? Today she pulled a contradictory face when I said to DS in front of her "I am confused as to why this has happened when you have been so good for the last few weeks". I have heard nothing from her for those weeks. But that look on her face confirms my feelings that my backing up the teacher is having little effect.

What would you all do/say to your children in these circumstances?

"some children smile when they are uncomfortable / in trouble - it's a nervous reaction - surely she is aware of this"

Well I thought she should be aware of this too - activate - but nobody on else on here seems to be aware of it. I also thought that it was very normal for little children (he is only 4) to look away if feeling uncomfortable,embarrassed and in trouble.

All the posts on here have been very useful and interesting, but they seem to be forgetting that DS is only 4.

Should 4 year olds really be expected to start school and instantly become obedient?

It obviously helps if they've been taught to follow instructions at home. Since you appear to negotiate about what he'd rather do you can't expect that to happen at school.

No I agree ilovesooty. We do often negotiate at home. And of course they don't have time to do that in school.

Sometimes we do instructions at home, but not all the time. I suppose I just have to explain to DS that at school it is instructions all the time.

I think people are aware of the smile thing but are also aware that it is something that people are conditioned out of as, rightly or wrongly, within our culture its considered rude and disrespectful to smile at someone who has reason to be displeased with you. Its quite normal for people to say 'stop smiling, its not funny' when they want someone to stop smiling because it isn't funny.

I think its all a storm in a teacup really. He isn't used to not being able to negotiate with his teacher the way he negotiates at home and once he gets the measure of her he will learn what he can and can't get away with. He's just not there yet but its very early days, especially with him missing the first hour when there are a lot of instructions.

"conditioned out of"

yes over time - by secondary school

the kid's 4

Perhaps you should have taught him to follow instructions first, and moved onto negotionating skills when he was more mature.
One of the biggest challenges in teaching is more and more (and increasingly younger) children feeling that it's perfectly ok to argue with negotiate with adults.

OK this is very true. But can you tell me how you achieve this when you are not actually present in the classroom?

By doing it at home first....negotiations with a toddler? Seems like hardwork and, in this instance, has given him a bit of a culture shock on starting school.

I too encouraged my oldest Ds to negotiate a lot at home prior to starting school, but he also attended pre-school where he quickly got the hang of following rules from 3 onwards - how was your lad at pre-school or has he been able to negotiate right up till now?
If so he is probably finding it a shock.
Random point but could you change the time of his physio ?
Missing a morning chunk of school is rubbishy from the childs perspective of fitting into the daily routine and is most likely to be when when they cover the key academic work for the day.
Also I would really advise you to get a doctors view of wether or not CB has imparied brain function from a learning perspective, in addition to the physical perspective.
You seem unsure and this concern can be tested for and then you will knowmore clearly how to help him.
Also ditch the idea of HE, he is at school, your perspective needs to change from "if it doesn't work out we will pull him out" - otherwise you will always be looking at evry tiny infraction as yet another reason to hammer the school.

Does he ever have to do things he does not want to do at home??

My ds got into trouble a fair bit at school as he hated changing activities and found it hard to follow instructions. I suspect that we heard about very few of his bad behaviour incidents (like having massive throwing himself on the floor and screaming tantrums at he age of 6/7 including throwing his shoes at teachers, which we only heard about several months later). Sometimes the things we were told about seemed quite trivial, but I guess in the context of his behaviour they might have been the last straw.

So I think that might have been the problem when you told your son that he had been being 'so good' because in truth you have no idea how he had been behaving. There might just not have been anything she felt was significant to tell you about. My experience is that teachers don't usually tell you everything that happens, and I think it's one of the difficult things to adjust to when you send your child to school as you are much less involved with a good chunk of their life and can feel that you have very little influence.

Do you feel that the teacher doesn't 'get' your son? We were very lucky I think that although ds was a pain at school (still is at times) it was clear that all his teachers really liked him and understood that he did find school very difficult at times. A teacher doesn't need to be a bully not to be the best fit for your child, and I imagine with his CP (plus 4 is very little) that you are probably quite protective.

I think the teacher sounds very annoying, but it is really hard to judge a person's manner from a description like this.
Our lovely reception teachers have authority without EVER being remotely bullying. They are kind and calm, and wouldn't need to talk to parents because someone wouldn't put a coat on.
Sometimes teachers are unreasonable, self important, bullying, or uncaring. Sometimes parents are unreasonable, precious, self important and inconsiderate. On mumsnet I have noticed people always jump to defend a teacher, assuming the complaining parent is being precious.
It is usually hard to tell.
I think the problem is that if the teacher is as annoying as you say, she will only resent anything you say, and if she is fundamentally nice, there's no need to say it.
If you have specific ideas about how to get your son to behave well (perhaps you could refer to his SN) these might be helpful. I certainly think it is important to talk to her about how he can be tactfully integrated into the class after finishing his physio; I would think he should be welcomed enthusiastically, and given some choices about how he starts his school day. She sounds inflexible and tactless: the kind of person who is just annoyed to have a disruption to her schedule with him needing to arrive late.

I think in the circumstances, you would have been better asking your son to listen and to stop smiling. The teacher would feel supported, and your son would understand that you agree with her. Also, your son can still help with tidying things even if he did get to play with them, being part of the class community.

We weren't there (obviously), but nothing in the OP would lead me to describe the teacher as rude or bullying simply because she repeats requests and does not let a persistently non-compliant pupil off the hook.

I think you need to back up the teacher and find ways to improve your DSes behaviour. You may think he's young for this, but not tackling bad behaviour as soon as it is manifest is the way to store up big problems later.

For the teacher to see you this often, she's worried. This is a huge warning bell. For your DS's sake, you should be listening and acting to change his behaviour before it becomes an entrenched attitude (not trying to blame the teacher's manner or otherwise argue yourself out of responsibility).

You might like to read some of the threads in "education" or in "teenagers" about the impact of persistent "low level disruption" in the classroom, or other problems which have become intractable by then.

I know of a very similar situation with a reception child which has played out in exactly the same way as yours. The boys mum tells me that she's been called in but that her DS just doesn't get things the first time... no matter how much she explains them. And that TBH is exactly the problem - she endlessly talks/discusses/agrees stuff with him at a level that is way over his head, but has completely forgotten to do all the basic boundary stuff first. I've seen him glaze over when she talks to him, then he runs off and carries on being naughty. He has no respect for her because he has not been taught to respect people. You can negotiate good behaviour from a teenager, but not from a 4 year old who doesn't feel inclined to behave anyway.

I think the OP needs to get on-side and try to enforce this because I imagine the child will benefit hugely from being in mainstream ed. My first suggestion would be to start establishing firm boundaries at home and also introducing something like a marble jar (good behaviour = marbles in, bad behaviour = marbles out. Full jar = treat)

It must be very difficult to do things that seem counter-intuitive to your natural instinct, but here the teacher is definitely in the right.

I too as a teacher, albeit secondary, find this attitude of children negotiating with adults bloody rude unsettling and potentially dangerous.

It's one thing for a 14/15 yr old to do it but by then they've worked out when it is safe or socially acceptable. A 4 yr old has so much to learn and has not the emotional experience to think quickly enough 'is my teacher telling me to do this for a reason or can I get out of doing this if I argue about it?'

So they have to be taught to 'blindly obey', but that doesn't last forever. Stop negotiating everything at home, teach him some things just have to be done, and he might find he gets on much better with his teacher. You can teach him about arguing his point when he's emotionally mature enough to know when it's safe to do so.

Xposts Squiffy - long time typing whilst feeding a bitey baby.

I agree with still squiffy OP....your son may be confused...as you sy he is only 4 and your atitude is to allow him many choices with regards to what you want him to do, when he does it if at all and suddenly he is in school where he hasn't got that liberty.

I know it is hard to see our children being disciplined....but if you want to benefit from what the school offers your son you need to work with the teacher.