As we are in admissions season again...some top tips for first timers

[BetsyBoop]

On this thread a while ago, I posted some top tips on the admissions system, which people found useful, so here they are again...

1. Visit every school local to you & make your own mind up - don't go on reputation/gossip/Ofsted reports/league tables
2. Find out how likely it is you stand a chance of a place by looking at the last few years admissions (eg what category & distance)
3. Put the schools in your genuine order or preference (schools are not allowed to operate a "first preference first" system, despite what people tell you)
4. Use all your preferences - but be realistic about your chances of getting a place - don't waste a preference on a hell-will-freeze-over-first option.
5. Always include one "safe" option (even if it is as last preference) which you are okay with & are pretty much guaranteed to get into (ie "catchment" school) . (Or you run the risk of getting a random "worse" school miles away if you don't get any of your preferences)
6. You will not be able to bully the LA/school/appeals panel into giving you the school you want by only putting that school on the application form & refusing places at other schools.
7. Read the admission code - you need to know the "rules" as if the rules are broken it gives you a valid reason to appeal.
8. Submit any exceptional social/medical circumstances evidence with your initial application, whether or not you are fairly confident you will get a place anyway - much easier than trying to win an appeal based on this later (which will typically fail if it is an infant class size* appeal)

• "infant class size" =YR/Y1/Y2 classes can have a maximum of 30 pupils per teacher

Oh I see.. so if you don't get your first choice, they send you a letter notifying you of where you have got a place and the reasons you didn't get your first choice. Is that right?

I've opted for a text notification too this year (as well as the letter) so I wonder if they'll let me know on the text too, or will refer me to the letter.

tbh I'm happy for dd1 to go to any of the 3 schools, but I'm terrified she won't get into any of them.

Admission figures are not on the council leaflet or website in Somerset - dh and I have hunted. I'll call them and ask. Thank you.

headfairy - yep, spot on :)

I doubt the text will have any details other than the allocated school, you will more than likely have to wait for the snail mail for that. If you don't get first choice the letter will also include info about how to appeal & confirm you are automatically on the waiting list for higher preference schools (or check if it doesn't).

headfairy - Yes, you should get a letter setting out exactly why you didn't get your first choice. Unfortunately some LAs don't set out the reasons properly despite the fact that the regulations say they must, so you have to ask for the details or even appeal just to find out.

As BetsyBoop says, the mistakes you are most likely to notice are being placed in the wrong admissions category or getting the distance wrong. It is possible for other mistakes to be made but you are less likely to spot them. For example, if they get the distance for another child wrong and let them in because they are 0.5 miles away when they are actually 2.5 miles away your chances of finding out are minimal. You do occasionally find LAs that have failed to comply with the Admissions Code, which classes as a mistake. For example, Hester says her LA has a closing date in December. The regulations say the closing date for primary school applications is 15th January for all of England. If Hester is right, her LA will treat applications as late if they arrive after the December date. Those parents will have a good case for appeal because the LA cannot treat applications as late unless they arrive after 15th January.

PrincessScrumpy - Try here. This gives the admission number for each school, the number of pupils applying and the number of those admitted. It also tells you how many appeals there were and how many of them were successful. It does not, however, tell you which criteria the successful applicants were admitted under nor does it tell you the distance of the last child admitted, both of which would be useful. The figures suggest that a very high proportion of parents get their first choice. On a quick scan it looks like most schools didn't offer all their places, which suggests they had more places than they needed last year.

Thanks for that Betsy. If we get our third choice, do we go on the waiting list for both second and first choices or just one?

Just to return to the OP - Point 5 - what if there is no 'safe' option?

I've been combing through the LA's list of schools which indicates which ones were oversubscribed last year and excluding our first choice which is our catchment school and all the CE ones, the next nearest 10 schools to us were all oversubscribed!! So if we put any of them down as 2nd or 3rd then we have pretty much no chance of getting them. It seems like insanity to ignore them all on that basis and put a school further away just because it had spare places last year.

I'm beginning to wonder where all the extra children went!

chihiro

Just because schools are oversubscribed doesn't mean you have no chance of getting a place if you don't put them first, it doesn't work like that (schools aren't allowed to do "first preference people first") For example you could get your third choice school (if you didn't get 1 or 2) if you live nearer than someone else, even if it was their first choice.

You need to find out whether you would probably have got a place the last 2 or 3 years (eg normally based on what admissions category/distance you are) to give you some idea of likelihood of success.

That said there are a some people who live in black holes & bermuda triangles as far as the school admission system is concerned, they don't live near enough to any local school to get a place, so end up in an undersubscribed school miles away just because it has spare spaces...

Thanks Betsy, but still confused. What I meant is that if we put down the school in the next village as 2nd choice because it is second nearest we don't have much of a chance of getting it because there are already children in that village who aren't getting in to their own school.

If you duplicate that situation round all the local villages (which appears to be the case from last year's figures) then that's why I feel like we don't have a 2nd or 3rd choice of school. Hence my comment about where the extra children from each village are going

Let me clarify something about oversubscribed schools as I think it is misleading some people.

Let us imagine that the council has only 3 schools. Each school has an admission number of 30. This year 90 children want admission to reception, so we have exactly the right number of places. The parents of all 90 children name their nearest school as their first preference and the other two schools as their second and third preferences.

All three schools are now oversubscribed. They all have 90 children applying for 30 places. But every one of those 90 children will get a place at one or other of the schools. And since everyone has named their nearest school as first choice there is a good chance that everyone is going to end up with their first choice.

If the LA has exactly the right number of places available and all parents name three preferences you would expect all the schools to have three times as many applicants as places. In that scenario the schools that get four or five times as many applicants as places are the popular ones where it will be difficult to get a place. A school that has twice as many applicants as places or less is unpopular and it will usually be easy to get a place.

Applying for DS to start school, hard the believe my baby boy will be heading for school next September!

I am in the somewhat strange situation that I only have one school to put down on my form. I did the same back when we were applying for DD (who is now Y2).
It always makes me nervous only putting the one school on the form as it is the first on the list of 'you must never do' but in our situation there is no point adding two extra schools to the form.
It seems mad as the school is very oversubscribed, just had a gander at last years numbers, they had 61 preferences and 28 first preferences for 20 places. It is a CofE VA school so don't have as much of a break down of the numbers as you would have for other schools. I know that while the PAN is 20 and they admitted 20 in the first round of admissions and all children in catchment and out of catchment siblings got in they now have 26 in the current reception class as for the second year running the LEA asked them to take some extras. In my DD's year they had similar numbers in preferences and that year was a bumper year for catchment children, all 20 places were filled from catchment siblings and catchment children, so much so that one catchment child didn't get in and no non catchment siblings got in, those people went to appeal and were admitted in part one of the process (with the school actively wanting the appeals to be successful) as a new reception class room was being built meaning no more mixed age classes until Y4. There were 26 in DD's reception class, they are down to 24 now though however in the eyes of the LEA this set a president, school could now cope with higher numbers and as a result of the LEA experiencing a shortage of places in the nearest town have request we take a few more, school is happy with this and the process of upping the PAN to 26 for September 2013 starters in under way. Anyway, think I got off the point for a while there!
We are rural, the next nearest school is over 3 miles away, I don't have a car, I couldn't get DS to another school so the village school is the one he has to go to and will be the only one on the form, he is in the first category after looked after due to DD being at the school, we live in the village (catchment covers a couple of surrounding hamlets) and even in the most bumper of years (like DD's) he will get in, DD didn't have a problem even in that bumper year, we are only half a mile from the school (in rural area that is like next door) but the fact he is almost 'guaranteed' doesn't stop me getting the jitters only putting one school down, if the almost impossible did happen I would just have to go with what the LEA gave us anyway as they would have to do the transport, there doesn't seem to be any terrible schools in the area, we are spoilt as are school is outstanding in all areas according of ofsted and as a current parent there I would agree on the whole, it is a fab school, I think I would find fault in any other school simply because it isn't ours but I know that's my problem not any other schools!
I have really whitted on, all just to say I am only putting one school down even though it is only because of these specific circumstance, 99.5% of the time, it would be insane to do what I am about to do... for the second time... gulp!

chihiro - Just because the school in the next village is oversubscribed that doesn't mean there are children in that village who aren't getting in to their own school. It doesn't even necessarily mean they are full.

Let us imagine the school in the next village admits 12 pupils. They get 28 applications so they are oversubscribed. Of those, 8 are from people within the village who name it as their first choice. The other 20 applications are from people in other villages who name it as their second or third choice. In that scenario the likelihood is that all 8 of the children from within the village will be admitted. Indeed, if the children from other villages get in to their first choice schools, this school is going to end up only admitting 8 children despite being oversubscribed.

The next nearest school is over 3 miles away - In that case if you get a place there the LA will have to provide free transport for your child.

I understand what you are saying but I would still put other schools down as preferences. That way if your son doesn't get in to the local school you will, hopefully, get one nearby rather than one 15 miles away. As long as you have made your local school your first choice, if they allocate a school more than 2 miles away by the shortest walking route the LA have to provide free transport.

OK thanks for the info about oversubscription - panic abating a bit!

However the bit I have been going by is on the council list of school where the school all have a little star by them and key says "* The admission limit for this school was reach in the 2011-12 school year. If the same conditions apply next year some applicants are unlikely to get a place"

Is this the same thing as the oversubscription process you are talking about?

I think the LA are trying to be helpful but failing miserably!

It means they filled all the places. However, it doesn't tell us if all the people naming the school as first choice got in. It could mean that some people from the village didn't get in or it could mean that all the people from the village got in plus a number of people from elsewhere - people from other villages where the local school was full or people from elsewhere who really wanted this school for some reason. Without knowing what actually happened and, indeed, what happened in previous years it is difficult to judge what is likely to happen this year.

OK that makes sense. So we shouldn't really let the fact that a school reached its admission limit deter us from putting that school down as a 2nd or 3rd choice because we can't possibly know the full breakdown of figures.

Of course the other thing that has been worrying me was when we saw the headteacher of school 2 yesterday she asked us where we lived so we said, and she did a big intake of breath between her teeth (you know the gesture I mean) which DH and I both interpreted as 'you haven't got a hope in hell of getting your twins into my school if you can't get into your own village'.

It kind of spoke volumes and I am dreading the other school visits next week.

Just reading the bumf before I do DS's application, came across this wording in relationship to late applications, it says:

If your application is received after the closing date of the 16th of January 2012 we may not be able to deal with it at the same time as all those that arrived on time

The wording that got me was may shouldn't it say won't, I would have thought, given the huge amount about admissions and appeals I have learnt on MN that may is too much of an ambiguous word to use under these circumstance. Thought on this? Also the fact it has been stated here the national closing date is the 15th of Jan now that they have made it the same country wide yet my LEA are stating the 16th?

Ive got a dilema with dd3. I have applied for her to go to the same school as her 2 older sisters. Problem is DD2 has SN and i am considering moving her to another school as her current school is useless with her but fantistic with DD1 so what do i do with DD3 if i apply as DD1 will only have a year left.

Hmm, ours says 15th. 11.59 on the 15th if applying online. But then goes on to say that they will accept any forms that arrive first post on the 16th because 15th is a Sunday.

I have a at the wording this as I read on it became clear why they used the word may it seems our LEA allows you to plead your case if you miss the deadline up to the time they start the process of allocation on the 17th of Feb 2012. It doesn't sit right with me with all the info I have gleaned from the experts here, seems to much room for error of one sort or another, for example one of the reasons they list that you can plead your case after a late application is if you have just moved to the area, I have lost count of the number of MNers who have had school allocation hell after moving house around the time of school applications!

Just to add, my daughters school is one off 4 in the area but its the one where everyone wants to go. Last year they had 87 applications, this year they had 32 so it varies every year. Last year the closest school to it was rebuilt with excellent facilities although its not graded as highly (yet) by ofstead. One of the other schools was put in measures and had money thrown at it so this has eased the applications for our school iyswim.

Many LAs will treat some late applications as on time provided you have a good reason and aren't too late. "I forgot" won't cut it!

prh47bridge

hello - can I add to the ever-expanding list of questions please?

Upthread you saud: As long as you have made your local school your first choice, if they allocate a school more than 2 miles away by the shortest walking route the LA have to provide free transport.

Please can you confirm that you mean this and how you go about getting this?

I live in the London borough of Camden. In June c90 children in the borough were without a school place anywhere in the borough for reception this Sept (yes, you read that correctly). Another 70-odd children were given a place at a school somewhere in the borough at a school which was not one of their parents' 6 choices.

Many of these children were sent to schools which were more than 2 miles away (as the crow flies which is Camden's way of measuring). If they are obliged to provide free transport this would make a massive difference to many of the parents currently trying to get their children all over the borough.

Many thanks and get up the good work.

Table

(ps - we are most likely one of those families in an absolute black hole and our DDs may well up end without a school place anywhere. It makes me cry with anger and dismay. There is also a brilliant campaign going to start a new primary school going, but the council are blocking it every single step of the way. But that is another story for another day...)

ladyintheradiator - You have nothing to lose by putting school A as your first choice. It means you have a chance of getting in to school A and it won't affect your chances of getting in to school B. If you don't get a place at either A or B you will go on the waiting list for both.

tablefor3 - Yes, I do mean that. For children under 8 the LA must provide free transport if the allocated school is more than 2 miles away by the shortest walking route. Once the child reaches 8 they only have to provide free transport if the school is more than 3 miles away for most children, although there are some circumstances related to special needs and low incomes where the distance remains at 2 miles. However, they do not have to provide free transport if you choose a school that far away and could have placed your child at a nearer school.

The law talks about walking distance but that will always be longer than the straight line distance. In the circumstances you describe Camden is obliged to provide free transport for the children concerned if they request it. Camden's application form can be found here.