Growing number of children 'don't know their own name' when starting school

[mrz]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8668117/Growing-number-of-children-dont-know-their-own-name-when-starting-school.html

Haven't got very far in the thread yet I am strangely compelled to go and play with DS but

And very :(

LRDTheFeministDragon I have never at any point suggested the issue has anything to do with parents not loving their children or class. But it doesn't mean that there isn't a problem that can easily be solved.

Why is it a problem? The very fact you see it as that is very revealing, don't you think?

I knew someone who was known as 'boy' all his life ,he had 4 older sisters

I don't think I ever knew his real name ,he wasn't neglected or unloved it was just his nickname

Everyone called him boy,even his teachers

Do you not think it is a problem that a child doesn't know there own name?

and i'm not talking about "boy" or "sexy babe" or "princess" or "Katie" or "Billy" or any combination ... just a child who doesn't know what they are called.

One of my grandmothers was known all her life as Cissy and it wasn't remotely close to her name. Though it was spelled with a C, I think it was derived from 'Sister'. My mum was known as Baby by her family and everyone else, and she hated it even now when she goes back to visit her old home in the country her old friends and the old neighbours still call her Baby. An aunt on my dad's side of the family was known throughout her childhood as Tommy her given name was a real doozie and she was quite a tomboy. When she was 17 and packing for finishing school my grandfather sat her down and asked her to choose between two more ladylike names, neither of which was her baptismal name, and that was her name from then on. My own DD4 has always been known by her own early pronunciation of her rather long name.

Betsy sounds fine to me whereas Sexy Baby does not; I would wonder in my obv middle class way what those parents were thinking. Princess otoh, reveals affection for the child on the part of the parents, imo, but like Mrz I would hesitate to use it and would use a more formal name in school.

My dentist used to call all the little girls he treated 'Princess' -- I loved it as I considered my traditional Irish name rather clunky as a child.

mathanxiety believe me parents who call there child "sexy xxxx" mean it affectionately not in any sinister way.

My grandmother only discovered my grandfathers real name at the altar because he was known by another name not connected to his own but he did know his own name so I don't think that is anyway similar.

As a teacher who is intensely proud of my working class heritage, I do not see my role as passing on middle class values.

I don't sneer at the middle classes, although they amuse me. I do however sneer at those people of whatever class who assume their way is the only way. My dd, despite being burdened with two working class parents is a happy, bright and well cared for child who knows het Christian name and her nick name.

That's the thing -- there's a two ships passing in the night aspect to using Sexy Baby as an affectionate name for a small child (or even for someone older) and how that is going to be perceived by people who wouldn't dream of calling their DD a name like that.. Two very different cultures that don't seem to understand each other and have different values.

I think it blurs the issue to refer to these skills as societal norms or values, as that can seem to infer that some lack values or deviate from the norm and this can be seen as judgemental.

I would consider these things to be basic building blocks or foundations for any child's education - and some of these should be in place before the child starts school (providing there are no reasons why the child can't obtain these skills by that age - such as SEN or disability) - and when the parents don't or can't teach these skills, the child will have a struggle when they start in school - and regardless of social class, this is a bad thing.

There are values expressed in everything -- just not the same values for all people at the same time. 'Sexy Baby' is an expression of the parents' values just as much as 'Ptolemy Ned' is.

I agree that to not know your name at all and to answer to 'Oi' or 'You' or 'Little F---er', or to pay more attention to tone of voice than any particular name is the tip of another iceberg altogether.

Do pre-schools do the register at the start of a session? Surely that would be a practical way of making sure young children know their names. Are there many children who don't attend a pre-school before they go to infant school.

The nursery my DC's attend does the register in the morning and afternoon so they're used to hearing their full names. I have a few nicknames for them but even so I use their names most of the time.

I know lots of pre school settings use self registration instead of the traditional taking the register so perhaps Meglet you have identified a contributory factor. (not something I had thought of to be honest)

"i have a french friend incidentally who doesn't call her children by their names, one of her boys has not graduated from the diminutive, 'bou-bou' yet and the littlest one is called, 'baby'.

their pet names are names even if not matching their birth cert names. it is not actually uncommon to use baby names for years. it doesn't have to signify neglect."

However, in France, it is illegal to use a name other than the first name on one's birth certificate in any official capacity, and all children will be called their first name in full from (at the very latest) their first day in pre-school, which will be in the September of the calendar year they turn three. There is no chance whatsoever that a French child starts proper school not knowing his/her full official name.

I recall the walls of the DCs' preschool having lots of displays that featured photos of the children, their names, their birthdays, their pets, their favourite foods/animals/pasttimes, as well as a name over each cubby and coat peg. The teacher called the roll at the start of each session.

I agree that to not know your name at all and to answer to 'Oi' or 'You' or 'Little F---er', or to pay more attention to tone of voice than any particular name is the tip of another iceberg altogether.

And, tbh, that's the only kind of 'not knowing your own name' that I would find at all worrying as a teacher. Answering to a pet or nickname and not knowing the full one is not something I would worry about - whether it is of the 'Ptolemy Ned' or 'sexy babe' variety should matter not one jot.

Also, it is most concerning as part of a general pattern of emotional and personal neglect - again thinking of particular children but obviously not describing them in too much detail on this forum - such as not knowing how to give / receive a hug or other affectionate gesture, not being fed before or after school, clothes being absent / dirty / wholly unsuitable for colder weather, no care for teeth or hair or skin cleanliness. As a 'stand alone' absence in a child's life the knowledge of a name is, after all, a fairly simple thing to remedy ... other forms of neglect and abuse are often much harder to tackle.

mrz - as I've said, it is a problem if a child doesn't have a name that's been used affectionately to them, if they're responding to something like 'oi, you'. But I think to include nicknames like 'princess' or names that refer to your place in a family in the same category is misleading, and could be indicative of class or race prejudice. So you have to be careful. I got into this wondering how much that sort of thing biased the Telegraph article.

I know of lots of very middle-class children who are called thinks like Josephine Eleanor (always called Eleanor) or Peter Samuel (always called Sam), and no-one is making a fuss they they don't know their 'real' names.

The reason no one is making a fuss LRDTheFeministDragon is because both Eleanor and Sam know their names unlike the children in the article who apparently don't now theirs, not even a pet name (princess) or a derivative (Sam).

the language instinct is so powerful in humans that you are going to find a word that relates to yourself (unless maybe you are an inseparable identical twin) unless you either have special needs or have suffered levels of abuse that make it very unlikely anyone would be bringing you to school in the first place.

No, I mean, I know of children who think their names are Eleanor and Sam, not Josephine and Peter. Just as you know of children who think their names are Princess and Baby. I'm sure all would be equally surprised to learn they have a different name no-one uses. So it is evidently only snobbery that's the criterion for judging one set more harshly than the other.

In middle class Uk society, we're used to some conventions, like using a middle name or a (common) nickname derived from a first name. We're not used to conventions like calling a child the word that denotes their place in the family, or an epithet not related to their first name. So what? A teacher who can't see beyond his or her own experience is probably not a very good teacher.

But Eleanor and Sam are their names just as princess" and "baby" are names but the children in the article don't have a name

My dad is still called boy by his parents. He is sixty.

mrz, I have tried to explain this before, did you read my other posts? I'm saying, I wonder if that article isn't conflating two things and assuming (as you did earlier) that a name like 'baby' or 'princess' doesn't count as knowing your own name. I think the article is only counting children who know their birth-cert names. But that will bias their data against cultures and social groups that don't use birth cert names so much.

IMO, there is nothing particularly wrong with not knowing your birth cert. name if that's normal in your culture. There would be something wrong if a child couldn't grasp the concept of a name, if s/he had never associated any epithet with him/her self, or if s/he had only associated an insult with him/her self. But I don't think the situations you've objected to are much more diverse than that.