Growing number of children 'don't know their own name' when starting school

[mrz]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8668117/Growing-number-of-children-dont-know-their-own-name-when-starting-school.html

swallowedAfly - I agree, and there's definitely an issue with middle class teachers assuming anything other than middle class cultural norms and values are wrong. So Elizabeth who thinks her name is Betsy is fine, Kaylee who thinks her name is Princess is a sign of outrageously poor parenting.

RitaMorgan - but isn't school, by very definition, trying to impart "middle class values and cultural norms"?

RitaMorgan once again the issue isn't with a child who is known by a derivative of their given name but a child who doesn't know their name at all.
Just to check are you telling me it is appropriate that I call little Elizabeth "sexy babe" in school because that's what they call her at home?

Bonsoir I don't think schools do try to impart middle class values but I do think it is important that children grow up knowing how to behave appropriately in certain social situations. Failing to teach that the way they act with friends in the playground isn't appropriate in the dining hall ... or at the other end of school the way they act when they are socialising with friends isn't appropriate for work experience is failing to prepare the child for the world in which they will live.

Rita, you put that so much better than me - but that's what I was getting at.

Doesn't anybody believe in societal 'norms' any more?

If we don't have consensual 'norms' everything falls apart.

I can't see many of you lot wanting a child to play with yours who breaks toys, physically assaults your child, doesn't understand the word 'no', eats with their fingers and chews with their mouth open, has 'accidents' anywhere in the house or garden etc. etc.

I agree that there is no need to sneer at 'inappropriate' parenting, but to sneer at 'middle class values' which are actually a loose set of norms which has been worked out over the years as being a fairly reasonable way for large groups of people to live comfortably together and keep themselves healthy, seems to me to be rather odd.

We have some pupils whose home lives are desperate and they are not happy children. A bit of 'middle class norms' in their lives would improve their situation no end.

That's exactly it maizie - the assumption that middle class norms are society's norms, and everyone would be better/happier if they behaved in a more middle class way.

I'm not sure I follow what being called Princess has to do with breaking toys?

If you work with children, isn't the idea that you don't assume that because someone doesn't fit in with the norm in one way, they therefore won't in others? Making such an assumption isn't using norms to keep society together, it's just lazy thinking. And you are likely to end up discriminating against non-middle class children simply because you don't explore the reasons why they might be challenging your expectations.

Are you really saying that by not continuing to call a pupil "boy", as he was called at home, was unfairly pushing middle class values?!

I think we were talking about pet names like Princess, and why they are perceived as the result of poor parenting whereas Betsy isn't.

rainbow - what I was getting at was that though there are undoubtedly very sad situations where children don't know what they're called because no-one talks to them properly, or because they're not usually talked to with affection, there are probably a lot more cases where the situation isn't that simple. No-one thinks a child who only answers to 'oi, bastard!' has had it good. But I think it's just snobbish to object to pet names on the grounds you don't like them, or you think they mean a child doesn't know his or her 'real' name. It's not a universal custom to call a child by one, single, 'real' name. Some cultures would think you were a very cold or strange parent if you called a child by its formal name. Not recognizing this is a problem, imo.

only just caught up on this thread today, if it's true its very sad that there are children who don't know they're own name, that said the article doesn't quote any facts or stats, i would imagine its a very small minority.

i'm sure bad parenting does exist but think everyone seems to be making snap judgements here based on a snapshot of someones life whom they may not know.

i am one of the mothers someone mentioned earlier in the thread who at the doctors surgery who would sit on their phone while DS plays with the toys, he loves the doctor waiting room as they have a toy kitchen which he doesn't have at home. when i am at home i do read to him/cook with him and speak to him regularly. he is 2yo and know his own first name as well as mine, DHs, and his grandparents. he can count confidently to 5 and he can count much higher but this seems to be a hit and mis ATM he know all his colours/shapes etc and can sing nursery rhymes. but i assume if you saw me in doc surgery you would assume that i am neglectful because i play with my phone?!

swallowedAfly perhaps you have never seen how distressed a small child can be when told he or she isn't who she thinks she is ...

Just to inject a lighthearted comment - but my DD's teacher calls all the children made up nicknames and a variety of ones for each child. Some of them are funny, some a little insensitive!!!

They all get used to it!

So it's perfectly OK for a four year old to think they are "sexy baby" but not OK for me to call her that

mrz - personally, no, I don't think so, because I think 'sexy' is inappropriate for a child - you would be risking people getting the wrong idea if you used that nickname. But it hardly suggests parents who don't love their child, does it? Whereas the implication of the OP was that these were neglected children who weren't talked to directly or with love - totally different imo.

In a similar way, my friend at school had an aunt a few years older, and they called each other 'mum's little sister' and 'sister's baby girl'. Obviously a teacher wouldn't use those words because they're context-based, and I'm not sure the children did know each other's names. You could throw up your hands and cry neglect, or you could accept that they seemed otherwise perfectly well-adjusted and happy. I know that is not exactly the same, but it gives you a good idea of why and how children could be used to not hearing names used much.

My mum didn't find out her real name until she started school and she is 70 now!!!

That's exactly it maizie - the assumption that middle class norms are society's norms, and everyone would be better/happier if they behaved in a more middle class way.

Hmm. I shouldn't have attached the words 'middle class' to 'values', though I did enclose the phrase in quote marks so as to imply 'so called middle class values'. It is obvious that some people regard 'middle class' as an almost pejorative term. I think that society 's 'norms' come from all strata of society and are in a constant state of change.

What I would like to know is where do you go if you don't think any 'values/norms' are valuable, or if you think that some aren't valuable because they 'appear' to emanate from a certain class?

Quite the opposite maizie, I think they are equally valuable. Middle class isn't perjorative, but it isn't automatically superior.