Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

"How on earth have we got a generation of atheists if Christian doctrine is such a brain-wash of claptrap?" Think we have probably always had lots of atheists but I would say the reason why we have so many vocal atheists now is because society has become a lot more liberal and we can now speak our minds without being labelled negatively - occasionally though I still hear gasps of horror when I tell people I'm an atheist.

On that subject - if atheism is a faith - do primary schools include it in their teaching? Or is it assumed that everyone believes in some type of God.

atheism isn't a religion (obviously) but neither is Buddhism and that's included in the RE curriculum so good question.

I agree with a lot of what you said Jalapeno, but I do struggle with the idea of religious worship - of any religion - being a part of the school day. Yes I grew up with it in shedloads, and it probably contributed to my becoming thoroughly sick of the whole thing and becoming an atheist.

But it's not ideal, really, especially in today's much more multi-faith schools.

I actually think it's a bit rude and belittling towards non-Christian parents (including atheists) when schools take their children and literally preach to them something which their parents don't believe in.

Bunbaker - hear hear.

I couldn't care less what religion people do or do not believe in. There is indeed room for us all. What I objected to early on in the thread and what I have objected to previously with SGB is her offensive and bigoted tone. The terminology -'bullshit', 'crap', 'nonsense' etc etc - is spiteful, offensive, childish and nasty..

SGB you are the most intolerant and narrow minded person on this thread.How's that for a great big juicy irony?

thanks for answering the question colditz.

Exotic fruits - why do you want me to read the various education acts and what do you think I would gain from this? Is there a particular act that you think I should read? Can I also ask you the same question I asked above - would you be happy with secular schools and them telling the pupils that relgion is dubious each week?

I don't think the concern is primarily about indoctrination into the faith, it is more about asemblies being full of god talk, and reinforcing the impression over many years that religions deserve a special kind of respect.

I have never been a believer. But as a child/teen I would say 'i'm not religious' - I think we were given the impression that to say you are an atheist in itself was disresptful to the idea of belief. Now more atheists are out and proud.

Excellent post jalapeno

Thank you donnie

SCGB
I don't like the insinuation that people who do believe in God are stupid and gullible. Interestingly most of the congregation at our church and at our previous church were professional, well educated people who are capable of rational and analytical thought, like myself.

I have always had an open mind towards religion. After all why do so many millions of people all around the world worship some kind of higher being? They can't all be superstitious and gullible.

"And as for the faith school thing bunbaker it is probably one for another thread. But the because they are popular arguement doesn't stand up. So were whites only schools in Alabama and South Africa."

Himalaya
I don't think that is a good analogy. Faith schools fulfil a purpose. The local Catholic school doesn't exclude children who are non Catholic.

Why would secular schools tell you faith is dubious? It is an opinion-it isn't dubious to some people. A secular school would teach it as a subject, they just wouldn't have worship.

I haven't read the education acts, in detail, but I am aware of the history of education in UK and why we have church schools in the places that we do, and what is required by law in the teaching of RE. For example RE is the only subject that has to be taught by law. It just helps to know these things-if you know that schools are supposed to have a daily act of worship (all schools)and what percentage is supposed to be Christian. Many people seem to get taken by surprise over this. History is a useful subject-it helps to know about Henry VIII and the monarch being defender of the faith for one thing.

Our culture is a Christian one-if you visit the National Gallery you won't understand half the works of art without knowledge of the Bible. It is in our language and customs. Five year olds should be aware of what a church is and if there is a news item like the Pope visiting you should be able to explain who he is -an impossibility if they have no idea that some people have a faith in God.

I loved jalapeno's post-it was so sensible and reasonable.

Come to Glasgow to see what faith schools rotor the community. Mine go to a non denominational school, the 'proddy' school apparently

You think faith schools have no effect but here the system is utterly divisive leading to suspicion and wilful misunderstanding on both sides.

I grew up an atheist, I do think religion is a bundle of superstition and mythology, and I will say that as it is a deeply held belief of mine. ButI would defend anyone's right to go to church/ temple/mosque. For this view, I have been called a bigot.

I think RE is very important. But no one ever discusses atheism.

'do for' not rotor (damn you auto correct)

I knew what you meant NT. Unfortunately it is places like Glasgow and Northern Ireland that give religion a bad name, especially between the protestants and Catholics.

Bunbaker - do you think it would help if schools in Northern Ireland and Glasgow were forced by law to be non-faith-selective, and have a mixed intake from nursery level onwards? Serious question.

I really couldn't answer the question as I am not very knowledgable about these things. I tend to be very accepting and tolerant of other people's faiths, perhaps because I don't have strong views myself.

I think children this age are incredibly impressionable. I too am an atheist (I said so to one of his Irish teachers whose face went all funny when I told her). My 6 year old DS has also been coming home saying various things, about Moses (the parting of the sea REALLY happened), Mary, Joseph, the Jews in Israel (a favourite topic in Y2 apparently), etc. Today he said a friend of his (who has a father who is a non-CofE priest somewhere) had said that when the wind blows it is a sign that god is angry!

Unfortunately, I have very religious in-laws who will come up with all sorts of ?superstitious? nonsense in front of DS given half chance. Thankfully they live abroad. It was their comments and influence I was worried about most when DS was born. I say to DS these are things that SOME people believe, etc. I have discussed Darwin with DS and taken him to various museums. He does love everything to do with Darwin, so one day it will provide a good BALANCE to the school?s Mary and Joseph stories! I honestly don?t think 6 year olds are advanced enough to understand all the pros and con, it is best to just show them a balance between various ways of thinking.

I told DS Santa (yet another superstition parents have to deal with) didn't exist the first time he mentioned him (I think he was 4 - as I don't really celebrate Xmas - he didn't know much before then). He told the children in his class as well as the class teacher. All of them said he DID exist....I think I would have a similar indirect "battle" with his class teacher and class mates if I tried explaining god away to him now. My approach is let him go along with it because in a few years time I will be discussing Evolution with him in more detail at home. If at any stage later in his life he decides to become a priest (which I doubt) I would have to support him on that decision too :) He is my son. I don't think it?s right for either parents or schools to "brainwash" children. Both as a teacher and as a mother, I see my role more as a "facilitator" of rational, logical, Enlightenment thinking!

I have students who spout out all sorts of religious theories in my classes. I simply pose questions about alternative patterns of thought - they usually get caught out though I am afraid because they can?t deal with the logic!
I prefer to think that as an atheistic I have the upper hand, so not too worried about religious education which thankfully in most UK schools is not too insidious, unless you go to a faith school. It?s the faith schools we have to worry about.

Sorry, I meant "the ancient Jews in Egypt" not in Israel !

"I prefer to think that as an atheistic I have the upper hand"

Why? Are you a superior being? Do you think you are better than people who believe in God?

Oh yes, this thread really needs to get into faith schools now. We've covered so much already.

(By the way, as a Christian I'd be more upset if some kid in school told my kid that Father Christmas wasn't real than if they told him God wasn't real. God, we have plenty of time to deal with. Father Christmas is a few years of 'magic').

"I don't like the insinuation that people who do believe in God are stupid and gullible. Interestingly most of the congregation at our church and at our previous church were professional, well educated people who are capable of rational and analytical thought, like myself."

Church attenence in our town rocketed when the local Faith school made church attendence a prerequistite for gaining admission. So while you might see loads of middle class professionals in attendance, it is often to gain a place in the local Ofsted Outstanding Secondary - so I wouldn't associate their attendance with any rational faith, more likely it's the very middle class desire of getting your child into an Ofsted Outstanding Secondary School.

If we were prevent State Faith schools selecting on the basis of parental church attendance, I wonder what would happen to church attendance in general - nose dive, I'm thinking!

Hi Bluehair

We don't actually have a faith school within 10 miles, and that one is Catholic, so it wouldn't make any difference to our congregation size. I do know it happens though. Most of our congregation are retired or parents of older children.

It is interesting that a lot of faith schools are generally regarded as "better" schools though. One of the reasons that a friend of mine is sending her children to the Catholic school.

What on earth is wrong with superstition? It is one of the things that makes us human! My mum used to say things like "the devil jumped back in" if I sneezed and said thank you when someone said bless you, or "that's god's punishment" if karma bit me on the arse. Even as a 10-year old I understood that the devil wasn't actually jumping back into my mouth. I understood it was a tradition just like saying "Charlie's dead" if you could see someone's petticoat! None of this did me any harm as I am the first scientist and card-carrying atheist in the family although tbh most of my family aren't that bothered about religion. My mum can't have been that arsed or she would have baptised me!!

With the "wind is god being angry" thing, just explain what wind actually is, tell them about thunder and lightening too. Science is very important and interesting but it often get's impetus from questions raised by religion (and I speak as an atheist scientist!). Don't dismiss the questions as silly, use them to enlighten your child's knowledge.

As for Moses parting the sea, it is a cracking story. If your DC comes home and tells you it really happened (as they might with a lord of the rings plot or after watching Braveheart for example) then you can either ask them about the meaning of the story and have a discussion or tell them it isn't real and the people peddling that crap are scary. I'd go former, you could go latter but either way I wouldn't be accusing the school of brainwashing! It is a story deeply embedded in our history and culture like thumbelina or jack and the beanstalk. Do all the angry atheists think that that story is brainwashing our children and dangerous to boot?

gets sorry! I've had a glass of wine now!

jalapeno - fine if it is all taught as fiction/ myth. But it often isn't.

I think that when someone as important and trusted as your child's primary school teacher is telling them that they will go to hell if they don't believe in god, or that they HAVE to say grace, or that EVRYONE believes in god, or that believing in god is more important than loving your parents (a recent thread), then yes, superstition is a stupid and ignorant way to relate to other people and I will object to people laving it all over my children/