Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

I usually do the "some people believe ..." approach

It never fails to amaze me how atheists stuggle with the idea of their children approaching faith. It's all 'oh they just do special stories' isn't it - nothing about a life changing faith which whilst you may not agree with it is a real and moving force in the lives of believers. In contrast all the Christian parents I know I have coped much better with their idea that their children may choose not to believe. There is no lying, there is no harrrumphing about what they are taught in school. There is just respect for the individual and the development of their own beliefs. As a Christian I hope my dds will share my faith. But if they don't, they don't. There is nothing I can control or ordain about that and nor would I want to.

Northernlurker

I am sure you are very liberal, but religions in general don't seem to take such an easy going approach to whether children chose the faith of their parents. In fact the whole organisation of religions seems to be geared towards children staying in the fold;

• normality of clasfying children as Christian/Muslim etc
• babtism at birth
• circumcision
• pressure to go through confirmation at 13
• daily after school madrassa
• faith schools
• dietary laws that make social mixing difficult
• Jewish disgrace of 'marrying out'

I think the thing that shocks/annoys atheists when their kids start school is the degree to which religion is given a privileged place in state education. It seems like such an anachronistic throwback.

Think of it like this - I respect my child's right to choose any political party when they grow up, and I don't shield them from any particular political viewpoint. But if the school was to introduce a 'daily act of conservative teaching' I'd be up in arms!

• Islamic death penalty for apostasy

• dietary

iPhone formatting muckup...

THe problem is that so much religion is toxic shit. The misogyny. The homophobia. The massively unhealthy attitudes towards sexual behaviour. The 'hate the unbelievers' stuff. Oh and the misogyny. And all of it justified by someone's insistence that their imaginary friend wants them to behave like this.
This is why a lot of rational people are concerned about their DC being fed mythology-as-truth at school. The worry is that the wooly fluffy ALl Things Bright And Beautiful stuff might just be sugar-coating the nasty stuff which will be slipped in later.

I agree entirely Northernlurker-I can't understand censoring DCs and expecting them to think the same as you-utterly weird when experience must show that this doesn't happen! For example I would think that SGB must have had some faith shoved down her throat as a DC to be so bitter.(if my guess is correct-following your parents doesn't work!)

northern - because the school has the same view as you it of course will make life easier for you.

if at school the children where constantly (once a week) told that "northern's belief" is drivel and lies - would you be happy with that as of course you children can make up their own minds and you wouldn't need to tell them anything apart form everyone has different view points.

"I am a bit concerned about what this particular crap-peddler may be telling the DC as I have heard (on here as well as elsewhere) of visiting vicars scaring and distressing DC or humiliating them by (for instance) telling them they'll go to hell if they are not baptised, or singling out the kids who are not christians.
In general I am concerned over what appears to be an increasing cultural pandering to superstition with all the misogyny and homophobia that entails. I do think religious education in schools for older DC ought to address this sort of thing as it happens."

Your prejudice, intolerance and bigoted views are far worse than anyone of any religious persuasion I know. Where is the respect? I don't care whether people are atheist, agnostic or religious as long as there is respect for other people's beliefs or non beliefs. Calling organised religion superstitious claptrap simply displays your ignorance. A religious person could simply say that your pagan beliefs are superstitious claptrap. No Christian vicar I know spouts rubbish about going to hell if children aren't baptised. Fire and brimstone sermons certainly don't exist in C of E churches. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the true facts about Christianity before you dig yourself into a deeper hole.

Incidentally the poster who wrote that there were too many church schools fails to realise that they are there because there is a demand for them. They would close if there weren't enough pupils.

There is room in the world for all of us.

I agree bunbaker-I am not going to respect a bigoted parent if I was a DC. Live and let live (especially your DC who will have their own views).

I'm afraid, springchicken, that I'm rapidly losing any sympathy I had for your "plight". As this thread has progressed, you have become more and more unpleasant and more and more insulting.

You are more fanatical about your atheism than any religious person I know, and your generalisations and stereotypes don't do you any favours or paint you in any kind of rational light.

I'm out.

Exoticfruits - this isn't about live and let live, or about censoring the information children can get - it is about actively peddling a belief system in schools, of which SGB gave one example. But it's not just an isolated example - when schools have to impose a daily act of worship on children by law.

And as for the faith school thing bunbaker it is probably one for another thread. But the because they are popular arguement doesn't stand up. So were whites only schools in Alabama and South Africa.

Pagan beliefs do not equate to nothing, I think unfortunately you show your own bigoted ignorance and don't genuinly realise that you are ignorant of how other people think and operate.

I try hard to be tolerant of others views - it isn't always easy and what makes it harder is when a person who tells me to be tolerant with a stream of ignorance and about how others operate in the world.

There are no faith schools in USA, or France that isn't because there isn't a demand for them. It is because they don't allow them and schools become neutral for teaching and learning. France has bigger congregations of church goers than the UK so it doesn't seem to impead on religion by not having faith and education mixed.

Bunbaker, there has been at least one thread concerning an unpleasantly evangelical organisation visiting schools and distressing the DC. It does happen. My best hope for DS is that he will experience nothing worse than the sort of boredom I did with the endless church/assembly crap I had to put up with in school.
My big problem with superstition, as stated above, is that it is used as a justification for misogyny and homophobia, and for suppressing criticism of these things. Thats' wny I'm not entirely prepared to sit back and think 'Oh but it's just harmless singing songs and telling stories'.

I'm sorry, but I think that it is nice that DCs get all faiths at school, they are bound to get Christianity first, we are a Christian country and no state schools are secular. Bring up your DC to question everything, including you and let them make up their own mind.
I still think it utterly weird that you think that you can choose what your DCs thinks! You are bound to be disappointed if you think you can.
There is no place for schools with strange cult like organisations talking about Hell, but mainstream Christianity and understanding Lent is fine. No one is making your DC do anything about Lent.

Ivykaty44 - they do have private faith schools in US and France. Just not state schools.

Just curious SGB-don't answer if you don't want to-but did you have a very religious upbringing?

So would any of you be happy if by law schools where not only secular but every week they told the pupils that religion was views of people but they where just that views and not in any way based on fact and therefore dubious as to whether it was real, teach the pupils that there are different religions but none are based on fact and they have in themselves caused world problems and wars. it would be really nicely put but they would be told this every week at school.

Would you all be happy with that?

Himalaya - I had got the impression in the US that home schooling was on the rise due to the fact that schools had to teach evolution and they could found a school that was allowed to forgo this part of education due to faith and schooling not being mixed - I have gotten this wrong somewhere?

I think that schools should be secular, not have collective worship but teach RE as in 'this is what they believe' and the DC can be free to explore for themselves.It isn't up to someone to say it is true or untrue-it is a matter of faith and individual.

yes exotics, but at present we have adults stood in front of 6 year old children on regular occasions telling them about God in assembly as if it is true, talking about lent and the bible in such a way of authority.

That is my problem - I don't want them to do that, then If I say I don't want them to do that, I am told I make more fuss than any religious person. That is because the religious person has the education in school with them - they aren't asked to hide their own views so that their children can make up their own views - and that is effectivly what you are telling SGB to do, keep her views to herslef and let her dc make up his own mind

I would really like my offsrping/chidlren to learn lessons at school and learn about religion and its place and how it has shaped the world and how things are different in various religious organisations without the slow and steady stream of christianity taking first place and other religions being learnt about.

I would be even more pleased if leanring about religion was similar to french and DT in some schools and not broached until secondary education

I would, IvyKaty, I'd be happy with that.

But then, I was an outright God believer when I was 8, because I was taught about it at school. It didn't mean that I carried this belief with me.

I may be able to churn out various bible quotes, and sing more hymns than I even know I know, and still know the lord's prayer, but that doesn't give me belief or faith now. I can also tell you (vaguely) the story of passover, a few things about the prophet Muhammed, and all sorts of pagan and norse tales - but KNOWING that these tales exist doesn'#t make me believe them.

It's my facination with religion that has led me to believe none of them, in favour of a purely scientific approach, because they cannot ALL be right, and yet they are all convinced that they are.

SO children don't necessarily believe what they are told if they are later presented with evidence to the contrary.

i think religion should be taught in much the same way as geography - ie "People from X eat this, that and th other, and mostly believe that blah blah blah" - and that it should, like geography, be entirely optional after 14.

I think that you ought to read the various education acts IvyKaty and campaign for change if you don't like it-through the right channels. Generally in a non faith school the person will say 'Christians believe' in front of any statement BUT 5 yr olds don't really understand/notice the distinction. If you send your DC to a faith school you know what you are getting.
All primary schools teach a foreign language now (speaking for my LEA) and they have always done DT so I can't see the sense of leaving RE out-especially since the whole culture is Christian and you can't understand many works of art without a background. I also don't see why 5yr olds can't be told why they have pancakes on a certain Tues in Feb or March.
DCs are much cleverer than people seem to give them credit for and they actually think for themselves-they can have strong opinions early on!

Crikey.

I am an atheist and an ardent feminist but cannot agree with the bulk of the atheists on here about "claptrap" etc. Whilst it is very true about Judaism inflicting religion on baby boys by having them circumcised this is so far on the other end of the scale from a vicar visiting a group of children it cannot really form part of the same argument. My son is 5, for him the stories are good and give him comfort. As an older child they will either continue to delight and comfort him, and he is welcome to his belief in that case, or the penny will drop and he will realise it is all a nice idea but not true. Also fine. In the process I will not have shown him how to belittle and inflict extreme rudeness on others.

I don't believe in any religion but I went to a very normal state primary in the early 80s where things were much less multicultural and all assemblies and religious occasions were by default Christian. I followed this naturally and started to question it aged 9 or so when my brother was being baptised and I had the option but declined.

How on earth have we got a generation of atheists if Christian doctrine is such a brain-wash of claptrap? In actual fact there are many very good stories in the bible upon which to base a moral code and Christians in the UK are as a rule very gentle and liberal.

Let's not discredit the whole of our history and culture by insisting we have to give all 5 year olds a full-on philosophical debate every morning in assembly. Let's just continue with our essentially harmless traditions which are lovely stories and useful as learning tools, an education is of course why they are at school int he first place. Noone is telling these children what they have to believe and in a culture such as ours I don't think they would latch on to it anyway.

A breath of fresh air jalapeno-well said.

Jalapeno, that's a fab post. Measured and unemotional. Thanks.