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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

If schools don't predict a level 3 at KS1 do they think a level 5 unlikely at KS2?

73 replies

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 13:46

I've heard from friends that sometimes if a child doesn't get a level 3 at KS1 targets can be set inflexibly going forward?

In other words less than a level 3 at KS1 may translate to a level 4 at KS2? The middle group being taught to lower NC targets than the higher group. Therefore unless you're plugging the gaps at home a level 5 at KS2 will be nigh on impossible to achieve?

I've seen how some lessons are differentiated and there is plenty of scope for the top group to pull further and further away from the others in terms of ground covered. It may be that some in the middle don't have a chance to prove their potential?

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pinkhebe · 09/02/2011 14:23

no, my son is in yr 3, he got 2a for reading, and 2b for writing at the end of ks1. He and several others are having extra help in literacy to boost his performance.

So he is in the middle group and getting extra help

Original poster

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 14:27

Guess schools differ, that sounds very good.

Why are they boosting him? He was average for writing and above average for reading at the end of Y2. Is it that they have spotted the potential for him and a few others to achieve more but not the rest of the middle group?

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crazygracieuk · 09/02/2011 14:44

No. Some children are simply late bloomers. Ds1 had level 2 in most ks1 sats but is in year 5 and a high level 5. He is unusual that he's gone through all the ability tables in his class and I have only done thongs like his homework and listening to him read daily. When he has gone up groups, teachers have supported gaps in his knowledge.

Elsjas · 09/02/2011 14:48

No. In my dc school there is great flexibility to move between groups as children progress up the school. Many children (esp boys) are late bloomers - school should have the flexibility to cope with this.

pinkhebe · 09/02/2011 14:51

I don't know! He was level 3 in maths and science (like a lot of boys!) but he didn't progress very well in yr2 despite a very good teacher, maybe the other groups will have extra help later in the year.

Schools have an interest in getting as many children as possible to level 5 by the end of primary remember

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 09/02/2011 14:53

DD1 got level 2a in her Yr2 SATS. She got Level 5 in Yr6 and now in year 9 is Level 7 and in the top set of 10 at her secondary school. Some children just catch on to maths later, and all good schools realise that potential isn't best measured once and for all at age 7.

Fennel · 09/02/2011 15:07

Not true at our primary, they track and revise the targets every year. It's all mapped out on a computer chart.

I have one who goes up and down the charts by 3-4 years worth at a time, highly erratic test performance, that's how I know about the charts, she's combusting the system.

Original poster

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 15:25

Fennel, tell me more. How does this work?

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RatherBeOnThePiste · 09/02/2011 15:28

DS - classic summer baby got level 1 for the writing, but last year was all level 5s.

RatherBeOnThePiste · 09/02/2011 15:28

sorry level 1 at KS1 and 5s at KS2

manicbmc · 09/02/2011 15:32

I taught a child a few years ago who scraped a 1a in reading in yr 2. She got a level 5 in yr 6.

Original poster

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 15:53

I would think that the children that scraped 1as at KS1 that went on to get a level 5 in KS2 were in the minority?
Or is this not the case?

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Fennel · 09/02/2011 15:55

On the monitoring, I assume it's not just our school. Each child has their actual scores and predicted targets plotted in, so you can see for each child where they have last been assessed (end of each year), and where this puts them for each end of year and KS2 (assuming they go up 2 sub levels a year, that's the average). If the child jumps or flounders, this is obvious on the chart. and in yrs 5-6 there is attention to the ones who are borderline 4/5 say and do some sort of "booster" system with them. as well as extra with the top and bottom end, there is attention to the middle ones who might be improving fast.

Fennel · 09/02/2011 15:57

I know rather a lot of people who were last in class to read, ending up with multiple degrees in several languages, or bottom of class in maths, only to go on to get firsts in maths and physics. so I'd imagine it's not that unusual to improve massively between those years.

RatherBeOnThePiste · 09/02/2011 16:06

Well probably yes the minority - but IMHO it was crap Infants teaching followed by amazing junior level.

In the infants he had an attitude that it really did not matter and that he could get away with often genuinely doing nothing apart from maybe write half a title.

The Junior teachers left no stone unturned!

He was also a classic late bloomer and passed a competitive entrance exam for senior school at 11

He spent much of Year 2 in the loo avoiding work!

cory · 09/02/2011 16:19

ime sets are fluid and it is quite possible to work your way up, targets aren't set in stone

even at secondary level there is still room for surprises

Original poster

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 16:21

Glad it all turned out well RatherBeOnThePiste.

In our Y2 quite a large number started the year at a level 3a in some areas. It will be hard for others to catch them given the 1.5 level average rise. I guess you have to trust in the system and hope that all will reach their potential.

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Original poster

NorhamGardens · 09/02/2011 16:21

Glad it all turned out well RatherBeOnThePiste.

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RatherBeOnThePiste · 09/02/2011 16:30

We had one NQT struggling to find her feet in Reception, but she was kind and nice, followed by a good teacher who unfortunately was away a lot for health reasons in Year 1 followed by an exceptionally poor NQT in Year 2 who gave up teaching after this first year.

We were given the teacher with the strongest reputation on entry to Year 3. The children caught up from there.

The overall results for DS's class were dire and he was not alone in his level 1. We were a bit at a loss.

Funnily enough his older sister by two years had a succession of amazing teachers from Reception to Year 6. It does show how much influence a teacher can have.

stoatsrevenge · 09/02/2011 20:24

'In other words less than a level 3 at KS1 may translate to a level 4 at KS2? The middle group being taught to lower NC targets than the higher group. Therefore unless you're plugging the gaps at home a level 5 at KS2 will be nigh on impossible to achieve?'

Not true at all. The school will teach to the child's ability and will not set from this early age.

In fact, the school will be showing 'good'/'outstanding' progress if children who were 2B/A at KS1 achieve a level 5 in Y6. This will get lots of brownie points from Ofsted.

Schools CERTAINLY won't be keeping the

stoatsrevenge · 09/02/2011 20:24

Sorry didn't mean the < in the last paragraph!

PoppetUK · 09/02/2011 22:01

This is a question that I should have asked so thank you OP.

Does a level 5 mean they are likely to do well at secondary. How does Primary School success relate to Secondary School success? What long term things do us parents need to be thinking about?

IloveJudgeJudy · 10/02/2011 10:04

To give the answer ime to you, Poppet, the results a child gets at KS1, I believe, then KS2, gives the results that the schools expect the child to achieve at GCSE. This is called Fisher Family Trust results.

My DS is just taking GCSEs. His predicted results, which are written down and produced every time anyone wants to know them, are quite low, all Cs, but actually he is on target for a few As in GCSE, so it is all bs so far as I am concerned.

It has taken my DS quite a long time to reach the maturity to realise that he does actually need to work at school and as soon as he did this, the good results have followed.

I wouldn't worry about the SATs at all. They are to judge the school, not the children. The children will be setted at secondary school, most probably, and that will be done by taking other factors than just the SATs into account.

Pterosaur · 10/02/2011 10:18

My DD2 was 2A for maths in year 2, and is just about hitting level 5 now in year 6. I have a feeling the school will want her to nail that 5. I'd like her to get it for the sake of her self-confidence, but was pleased when she said that she would do her best in the SATs but had no intention of worrying about them beforehand.

I don't think SATs take age into account (do they?) - DD2's attainment at the end of year 6 is likely to be similar to DD1's, but DD1 was level 3 all the way in year 2 (September birthday), while DD2 (May birthday) had more of a mixed bag of KS1 results.

Original poster

NorhamGardens · 10/02/2011 12:35

Elbowfan said:If he scored 2a/b/c at the end of KS1 he will be expected to get to level 4 at the end of KS2

It's this sort of thinking that I worry could be potentially limiting. Don't mean to single you out Elbowfan. But it's this that made me start the thread and I hear it all the time...

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