I don't understand how dd sees things

[GooseyLoosey]

Dd is 6 and the youngest child in Yr 2 (late Aug birthday). She is a quiet child and is in the middle groups at school for everything.

Her father and I are pretty accademic people. We both have degrees from Oxford and fairly glittering accademic records. Ds(7) learns like a sponge.

dd struggles to understand anything that has any level of abstraction - no matter how many times it is explained. Her homework at the weekend was to work out how many lego bricks it would take to build a 10 stair staircase. She could not understand the instructions or the example (it showed you steps 1, 2 and 3). Even when we built it together, she was still not completely clear what she was supposed to be doing. I just could not understand how she could not see this and it drove me nuts. I have had similar problems explaining fractions and odd numbers. She can answer questions that I have explained to her, but could not apply the same principles in a different context (so if we did fractions looking at slices of cake, she would have problems applying it to a basket of apples).

I worry that she has more problems grasping these things than she should but just sails under the radar at school. Her teacher says everything is fine but she does not always listen to instructions or try as hard as she might. I am not sure this is true - I think she does not understand the instructions and is then unable to set about the task she is given.

Do you think I am worrying about nothing? At her age, I would have got all of this stuff easily and ds certainly did. I have no problems that she does not get it - I just don't know how to work out if she needs help or is just a normal kid.

long story but over the course of about 6 months when he was in year 3 i noticed various difficulties (couldn't tell the time, couldn't follow more than one instruction at once, was always 'daydreaming' or doing something totally different than he'd been asked, found maths, writing and reading much harder than expected)and after much heartache (teacher insisted he was 'lazy' etc)eventually had him assessed and discovered he is dyslexic. i now know that he displayed many very typical traits.

Having said that, it is my understanding that at the age of 5/6 quite a lot of children display those traits but turn out to be just a bit later starters. Everyone I know with dyslexic children just had a gut instinct that it was more than just being a late starter.

as to the paying attention thing - ds1 would often, both at school and at home, be asked to do something and then instead do something else completely random. his year 3 teacher said once she'd set some work and he spent half an hour drawing a complex picture of an engine instead. he had simply been unable to process the instructions for the task so did something else entirely.

I think it's far too early - your child is only 6 after all. At 7 or 8 you can tell how academic they will be. She is the youngest in her year group too. Also part of the problem is you are comparing her to your advanced son. It must be very difficult to compare but try not to! She probably knows how academic her brother is and perhaps this is putting her off a bit. Also, my father has a very high IQ and it was a nightmare when he tried to teach me maths - he just couldn't understand why anyone could not understand it! He says maths is 'beautiful' because it all fits together. Maybe you could get someone else in the family to 'teach' her things.

God, I hope ds's ability is not putting her off. That would be terrible and not something I would know how to approach. I have never expected them to achieve the same things and where dd has done something she is proud of, I have always been proud too. Ds could never write the imaginative stories that dd does or do the beautiful drawings. She knows she is better than him at some things to - I have tried to make sure of that.

Just want to sympathise with your situation. I have a very able DS but he also has major social issues and lots of AS traits. School think I'm nuts and just see him as quirky or odd but I can see as he gets older (he's 7yrs) the differences between him and the other boys are getting more and more.

His sister will never be as able as him. Certainly she'll never 'see' maths the way he does. She's only 5yrs but already she's aware of it and I think school also expect her to be at his level. He may be the one with the high IQ but I know who'll have the easier, happier life.

You're right Stovies, overall, I am sure that dd will have the easier life. Sometimes I worry though that I have spent so much energy focusing on ds that I have taken my eye off the ball with dd and she has lost out as a result. This parenting lark is really hard.

Sorry gooseyloosey - didn't mean for my message to be so direct. I am sure you are making a fuss of your daughter too. My gran says that my dad's brother seemed to give up because my dad kept getting all the speech day prizes. I think that's when my dad moved from the school my uncle was at. Are your two children at the same school?
I can sympathise too stovies. As a child of an extremely able father - went to Cambridge at 16 and got a first - I also see that quirky side. He doesn't socialise and it is a relief he had a job where he had an office to himself. He avoids all social situations (apart from weddings and funerals) but he is also very self sufficient and confident. He does his own thing all the time and doesn't care what anyone else thinks. He is never bored - actually, it sounds like he is quite happy! So what I am saying is that very gifted children can grow into happy adults. They are just a bit eccentric that's all! What he did say though was that highly gifted people need to go to be in the right school where they can be challenged.

I wonder if she could have any number of a range of "learning disadvantages" in particular I wondered about auditory processing disorder.

Whatever it turns out to be it may be worth seeking some help for your dd from a therapist either from this organisation or a similar one. I have had 2 dds treated for different issues all down to retained reflexes....

Here is a website to look at

www.inpp.org.uk/

There is an assessment tick list worth having a read through.

My best friend at school from 4 to 16 (many many years ago) was very good at arts and languages and struggled terribly with maths. She had to take o-level maths three times before eventually getting a grade C. She ended up getting a first class degree in languages and drama and now runs a theatre (which was always her ambition). She wasn't being lazy or difficult about maths, she just didn't get it.

I would support and encourage your daughter, but also give her some space. Enjoy her successes and accept that she may be a natural writer or artist who will need support with maths. We can't all be the same so celebrate her talents and give her help when she needs it.

Thanks again all. Magdalene, you weren't too direct - direct is good. They are in the same school - dd is in the class below ds so her teachers have always had him the year before. It is also a small school where everyone knows everyone else. We are increasingly coming to the view that they should not go to the same secondary school.

I think I will get her hearing tested and try and give her some space and relax a bit and see what happens this year. But ask her teacher to keep an eye on things and help me determine whether there is an issue or not.

Hi, GooseyLoosey,

Why not try listing on the same piece of paper all the things your dd is good at (academic, social, physical and emotional skills - including imagination, visual skills, listening skills, speech, writing, concentration, memory, etc). Then list the areas in which you think she is struggling. Then look at the strengths and weaknesses together and see if there is some kind of pattern. Also, does your dd prefer to learn by doing, or learn by listening, or learn by looking? I personally learn most by listening, which is apparently an advantage for traditional school learning; my brother had excellent visual skills. We did not comprehend maths in the same way at all.

If you focus on your dd's possible weaknesses to the exclusion of reminding yourself of her strengths, you will spot the weaknesses everywhere, and silly mistakes will be transformed into evidence of genuine difficulty, rather than tiredness, anxiety, poor explanations from the teacher or being 6 and sometimes getting things wrong. You will also worry more about her future if you don't force yourself to see her in the round - and if she does turn out to have a mild learning difficulty in one area, the way of getting around that will be to understand her strengths and take advantage of those to help her come to an understanding of the subjects in which she struggles in another way. In maths in particular, there are several ways of coming to an understanding of the solution to a problem. Choose the wrong explanation and you will confuse someone even more - choose the right one and they'll be angrily asking you why you didn't explain it like that in the first place, because it's all so easy.

Thanks rabbitstew - you are right, I need to focus on her strengths (of which there are many - she is a lovely child).

She does not learn at all well be listening and I think this is a problem. The school expects boys to be visual learners, but quiet girls seem to be expected to be good listeners. Her brother found it difficult to sit and listen at first and he was rewarded for his efforts, oddly dd has never been (until I stepped in recently).

My son is 6 and considered bright at school, however, I don't think they have even done fractions at school. What you think she should know sounds quite advanced to me.

2babyblues - you may be right, but the fractions were in the context of school homework so I assume it was what they were expected to understand by the teacher. I think I do expect too much though.

I think part of the problem is that schools in general don't focus on topics for long enough. They do number bonds for a couple of weeks and then they go on to measuring and then something else! That's probably why children still can't do number bonds in year 2 and then struggle with fractions. It means they don't get trained in concentrating for longer periods of time. Why not focus on the basics and make sure she knows them thoroughly? In a class of 30, the teacher can't do that much reinforcement.
Are there any grammar schools your son could go to?

Goosey, I think you have taken good advice very well on this thread.

I just wanted to remark on the effort grades; these tend to be 'made up' by the teacher and IMO are erroneous. I say that as a teacher. How can one person measure how much 'effort' another is making? As a mathematician, I'm sure you will appreciate that to grade something which cannot be measured is not a good idea, and is likely to be inaccurate; so please do not pay the effort grades too much mind.

I would like effort grades done away with altogether- they cause problems like this and are effectively meaningless.

Also, let her doher homework on her own- if it's pitched at the wrong level for her, the teacher needs to know and adjust it accordingly. Completing it should not require extensive explanation from you. Instead, write on the bottom of the hwk 'this was x minutes independent work'

Offer support, but the homework should be something she can complete independently: it's for her, not you

Tethersend - good idea about writing more in the homework diary. I do think I spend far too long explaining what the homework requires. I don't mind doing this, but it does show to me that she has not understood what she should have done at school

Magdalene - I agree that I need to go over the basics with her and keep on doing so to make sure that she gets them. At the moment I can see that there is a real risk of it all getting away from her and she would just sit there and not say. If the teacher asked her if she understood, I am fairly sure she would say yes even if it was not true as she would not want any attention focused on her.

Reluctantly, I suspect that I may have to make the decision to send both of them to independent schools. It would kill me financially though. I think ds would be picked on as a geek in a state secondary and dd would just get lost and sink quietly to the background, this is a shame as the state schools near us are good. The only problem is that the independent schools near us are highly selective and I am not sure that dd would do well in their entrance exams. Its never staightforward is it?

What about getting a scholarship for your son and paying for your daughter? Aren't there any grammar schools in the area for your son? I know I will get stick for saying this but the difference between state and private education is huge! and are there any private schools more suited to your daughter (less selective) in your area? Again, I think it is far too early to make a judgement about your daughter's abilities. It could be just a question of maturity. Wait and see how she develops over the next couple of years. In the meantime, keep talking to the school and do short bursts of work with her at home. After all, you sound very educated yourself - I am sure there is loads of stuff you can teach her that the school can't! What are her interests? You sound like a lovely mum!

I do think you need to relax with her. She sounds like she's doing okay. I also agree that she needs to be doing her homework herself with only minimum input from you. The homework reinforces what she is doing in class, and if she can't do it at home, then use the homework diary. She's still so little. My daughter is due to be tested for auditory processing disorder at the age of nearly 12. At your daughter's age, she was obviously behind her peers. Your little girlie sounds like she's doing just fine.

Thanks both - I am officially trying to relax, but God, this relaxation business is hard!

I don't mean to sound rude (and I apologise if I do), but do you have some hobbies and interests of your own? You do sound a bit of a 'helicopter parent' - obviously that's much better that than neglecting your DD and being indifferent to her problems, but maybe what she needs most of all is a bit of time and space to be herself and figure things out in her own time and her own way. Can you just sometimes get on with something of your own in the evenings (so she doesn't feel that her and her brother's achievements or lack of such are your entire reason for being hence massive pressure on her), and let her come to you if she wants to talk or ask a question about her homework etc. Or just spend some nice time with her doing something not related to academic work?

The eye/hearing tests sound like a good idea if there's any doubt in that area. Odd that she's so upset by the idea - does she know what the tests involve, i.e. nothing invasive or painful?

What can I say, Ephiny? You are wrong. This thread focuses on dd and how I see her, it does not mean I spend every minute of every day thinking about her.

My experiences with ds (which have been heart breaking for us all) have made me more wary of school picking up on issue and more focused on the need for me to ensure that my children are well loooked after. Its nothing more than that.

Thanks for your input though.

I do know why she is upset by the way - she had surgery earlier this year after being attacked by our family pet, she is not keen on doctors following this. Also why I feel guilty about dd and a need to protect her.

what about learning being more interactive? maths-whizz is an online maths programme that has really helped my son. I read recently that maths is a lot about repetition and i think its very true. I'd also check for dyslexia though.