I don't understand how dd sees things

[GooseyLoosey]

Dd is 6 and the youngest child in Yr 2 (late Aug birthday). She is a quiet child and is in the middle groups at school for everything.

Her father and I are pretty accademic people. We both have degrees from Oxford and fairly glittering accademic records. Ds(7) learns like a sponge.

dd struggles to understand anything that has any level of abstraction - no matter how many times it is explained. Her homework at the weekend was to work out how many lego bricks it would take to build a 10 stair staircase. She could not understand the instructions or the example (it showed you steps 1, 2 and 3). Even when we built it together, she was still not completely clear what she was supposed to be doing. I just could not understand how she could not see this and it drove me nuts. I have had similar problems explaining fractions and odd numbers. She can answer questions that I have explained to her, but could not apply the same principles in a different context (so if we did fractions looking at slices of cake, she would have problems applying it to a basket of apples).

I worry that she has more problems grasping these things than she should but just sails under the radar at school. Her teacher says everything is fine but she does not always listen to instructions or try as hard as she might. I am not sure this is true - I think she does not understand the instructions and is then unable to set about the task she is given.

Do you think I am worrying about nothing? At her age, I would have got all of this stuff easily and ds certainly did. I have no problems that she does not get it - I just don't know how to work out if she needs help or is just a normal kid.

I did wonder about 'pretending' actually. It's possible she could be getting things wrong on purpose as a way of rebelling against the pressure to be super-bright or being hot-housed at home?

My DD2 always wants to do what DD1 does, they are only 12 months apart, so when we start doing something and I suspect that she is playing a game and 'pretending' I say ok lets not do it then if you don't want to, and she nearly always says, no I do want to do it and then she does. I always then offer praise and say how good it is when you really try your best and achieve something. Personally I feel that young children should learn this, but perhaps I've got it all wrong

Please be kind to her and back off on the maths front at home. She'll pick it up in her own time. Or not. My father was/is extremely high powered academic type and we all felt intimidated by his knowledge and sense of superiority. For us children, there was constant fear as a look or raised eyebrow or clearing of the throat told us we weren't good enough. Occasionally, it would spill over into vicious sarcasm. We are still dealing with the fallout as adults and 2 of my siblings have been defeated by crippling insecurity.

I'd also like to say that good spelling is important and not just for CV's and job applications. It's to do with having respect for the person with whom you wish to communicate clearly. I know we all get tired and make mistakes on MN sometimes, but I wanted to make the point that it can matter as much as the counting.

Let your DD contribute to the world in her own way, and there are many, many ways.

I think it can be quite difficult to get used to the idea that your children don't think the same way you do. Especially if you have an older child who does.

Am in similar position with ds, who is bottom to average at school - makes me realise how wildly off the mark my own expectations were, having only dealt with a very bright child before. I didn't really expect to have to explain things, and certainly not to have to explain them more than once. It's a learning curve

Thanks again all for you input and sorry I didn't get back last night. You have made me feel much better about dd and much worse about my parenting.

Those who think she may feel pressurised by me have made me feel terrible, as I think you are right. What a thing to do to your own child. I don't mean to, I really don't care whether she is average, below average or whatever, I just want her to do her best - effort is always praised over attainment in our house. However, I always suspect that she is not trying, although I can see that I may be projecting things on to her.

Those who said that she may do it deliberately - that's one of the things that bothers me - I think that too - but how can I tell? Dd is a very cute child in a blond fluffy kind of way and deliberately speaks in a babyish voice some of the time. I think she trades on this and on being the youngest in the class.

dd does have skills that the rest of us do not. Her social skills are vastly superior to mine or her brothers and her imagination is amazing. I do celebrate these things and I have never celebrated the fact her brother is clever.

You're being very hard on yourself, Ms Goosey! Children take 'roles' in families, ALL families, and we ALL come with our own unconscious agendas, expectations, and things we are familiar with.

To be honest, I think you are being a brilliant parent - you have noticed, and cared about, your child's fairly subtle cues and doing everything you can to respond to them. That, IME, is as good as it gets - she's only 6, and here you are striving to support her even if it means exposing the struggle to a load of strangers, and questioning things. Hats off to you.

I would look at it as dd MAYBE having felt pressured by her situation as the youngest (? or is she a middle one?) child in a family of clever people. Also, worth bearing in mind that daughters of mothers who give themselves a hard time tend to pick that up too

So give yourself a break. I really hope the reassurance you've gained about your dd helps you relax and enjoy this time with her - just doing things you both love. I think she's probably just finding ways to get her Mummy's attention - and she's done a great job of it, and you're doing a great job of responding to her.

Ah - just to add: when one of my dds acts how they feel out by not making an effort, or talking in a baby voice, it can drive me nuts. I think the challenge is to step back enough to see and try to understand what they're up to, then to just love them without buying into the manipulation (not using that word negatively, its just what we all do when we aren't mature enough to express ourselves otherwise - which of course kids can't possibly be!).

You're already more than halfway there, I think.

acts out how they feel

Sorry, cold fingers, typing not keeping up with brain!

Thanks Elibean - that's very nice of you.

Don't be too hard on yourself, you are just concerned.
I have a DS and 2 DDs. The girls are very confident and DS is shy. It has taken me years to get my head around his shyness as I just couldn't understand what it was or where it came from as DH and I are much more like the girls. When I found myself getting sngry and frustrated about it, I realised things had to change and he is who he is, which is lovely.

Back to your child , firstly I would say, attainment wise, she is definitely above average if she is 2B at the end of Y1. Especially given her Aug birthday!

However, I do feel there is something to be concerned about. It is very rare to come across a quiet, able (2B) girl from a stable home who is below average for effort. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it's a rare combination. You get quiet, less able girls who switch off and able girls who are boisterous and don't always apply themselves but rarely does a girls like your DD get below average for effort.

I think you are right to be concerned. It could well be that in fact she is very able but has a SLD which is hindering her progress. Her ability has allowed her to learn a lot by rote which is why her results showed 2B. What is her writing like? Have you any reason to suspect she is dyslexic?

The other thing I would check straight away is a) Her hearing and b) Her eyesight.

I once had a Y4 child who was struggling to read and hear sound but presented no signs of hearing loss. Hearing check showed major clogging up and said he would be hearing as if under water. This child had taught himself basic lip readinmg and nobody had a clue.
6yrs is also a common age for starting to need glasses. She may be struggling to read what's in front of her and is switching off.

Sorry, if this is a bit disjointed but I just wanted to say it is not necessarily nothing.

Just wanted to add that if she achieved 2B at the end of Y1 and is in a middle group in class, then it is obviously a very high achieving school. Y2 is quite a pacy/pushy year anyway and quite a jump from Y1. Therefore, it could just be that her Aug birthday means she is not quite mature enough emotionally to be keeping up.

Having a summer birthday makes a huge difference in the infants. Little brains, however able, need a few years to adjust/catch up with what is being expected of them. It may simply be that the abstract concepts being expected of an able Y2 at your DDs school are just beyond what she can process at the moment. If everything else checks out clear, then you could well see her apply herself more readily by Y4 when it starts to become less overwhelming.

Cora - I think you are right. The not trying thing just does not fit with her personality. She is a child who is eager to please and who wants to be in the same groups as her friends. Her teacher says that she does not listen, but I am left wondering why that is. I suggested that perhaps she had dis-engaged as she did not believe that she would understand. He didn't disagree with me, but equally he didn't suggest that there was something that he could do.

I had arranged a hearing and eye test for her just before Christmas and she got really, really upset at the thought and was crying and asking me not to take her. I cancelled them as I did not want to ride rough-shod over what she wanted. Perhaps I should try again. I do wonder as sometimes when she is reading she seems to read say an "l" as an "i" and clearly sees it as an "i".

I don't think she is dyslexic - she writes a lot and while her spelling is terrible (family trait), it is phonetically viable. However, its not something I have any experience of so have no idea. The school pretty much denies the existence of dislexia even for children who suffer quite badly so they would be no help in working out if there was a problem there.

I have wondered if there is something like ADD there but don't know how I can tell.

Its a village school in a pretty affluent village. This means that most of the parents are fairly pushy and I guess its reflected in the attainments of the children. You would not believe it from this thread, but I am way, way at the less pushy end of the spectrum in many ways.

Her teacher is a lovely guy but as I said, not very good and dealing with specific needs. What do you think I should do? Just wait and see if things improve on there own?

I think you need to get her eyes and hearing checked. Could you arrange them on a morning them the two of you go off and do something of her choosing. Make it relaxing and less stressful.

ADD does exist without the 'H' but it is rarer and not something I have personally had experience with. There is no harm in speaking to your GP about it though after checking out everything else.

Phonetically spelt words is a good indication that she is not dyslexic but keep an eye on it as very bright children can often mask symptoms. Try doing some writing/maths on pastal coloured paper with a coloured gel pen and see if that makes any difference. dark markings on white paper is the worse combination for a dyslexic child.

As a teacher, the personality not fitting with low effort rang immediate alarm bells with me simply because it is so unusual. Especially given her two best friend are in the group above. I am really surprised that school aren't wonderinmg about this.

I think, as her mum, you need to ignore the effort grades for now. Assume she is trying her best and try to work out whgat the problem is. If she was getting good effort grades but still in the middle group , I'd say that's her level but the effort thing doesn't seem right at all.

Would you say her main issues are with maths? Or is it across the board? The struggling with the abstract and with listening to instructions could also indicate a SLD but that would need further investigation and I am certainly not qualified to diagnose. Does she have difficulty following instructions at home, specifically two part instructions? If so, I would push for a meeting with the senco and ask for a referral. But get her hearing and eyes checked first.

I found this showing the difference between ADD and ADHD

I would check out the other things first though. ADD is rare and even rarer in girls.

Yes, I think she does have problems in general following complex instructions - she will immediately tackle a task and will then forget the further stages.

I feel that she has similar problems in literacy and numeracy but it manifests itself more in numeracy because it is easier to see - the effects of not being able to follow instructions are clearer and more immediate. Her reading is fine, but that does not require following instructions.

I am pretty positive that the school will not support any additional help for her. She is average and no trouble - they are happy. I think that she may be average now but worry that if there is an underlying issue, she may struggle to remain so if it is not addressed, hence starting to look at what I can do and trying the maths with her to look at where problem areas might be.

One of the issues I face - as I clearly managed to demonstrate on this thread - it is very difficult for me to work out what she does not do that she should do and to articulate exactly what I think the problems are.

Well if her attainment is average because that's her natural level then that's fine. However, if she's not attaining at a level which matches her ability then that's storing up problems for later on.

If it continues and pushing for an observation gets you nowhere, perhaps you could consider a private assessment by an ed psych. If nothing else, it can put your mind at ease. Good luck with it!

Thanks very much for your input - ints much appreciated.

I may be that she doesn't have a good working memory (the bit of memory where you temporarily store info while you process/do things with it). an ed Psych assessment would be able to see if this was the case.

Ps. With the "not trying" thing. Do you think it is possible that she desperately wants to be as clever/high achieving as ds, but is scared that she might not be? By holding back on the effort a bit, she is keeping control of things to avoid devastating feelings if she does not do as well as ds. If she doesn't do as well as him, it is because she is holding back with effort ( which is under her control and so less devastating) rather than that she is not as able/clever. It's hard to explain but I hope you can see what I mean. She may even be doing this subconsciously rather than asa deliberate strategy?

sorry i'm coming to this late, but agree with sarahfreck that an ed psych assessment might help... not being able to follow multi stage instructions can be a marker for dyslexic type problems (ds1 is incredibly bright but had all the same type of problems you've mentioned - turns out he has terrible trouble with working memory - he now gets specialist tutoring which has really helped - he also was coasting along comparatively well up until about year 3, but kept getting told off for not concentrating and being given low grades for effort, as he was clearly bright yet didn't seem to be achieving in line with intelligence)

I had wondered about the "working memory" thing and from what I have read, I think it is entirely possible. Apparently such children are often perceived as not paying attention or trying when they are just unable to follow instructions through. Do you think if I mentioned this to her teacher he would have a clue what I was on about and any ideas how to approach dealing with it?

She might feel overshadowed by ds - he is a very loud, full on child and I do think at times being his sister has not been to her advantage. We are already talking about whether we should send them to separate secondary schools to ensure that she does not feel that she is perpertually in his shadow.

Ladysanders - how did you work out that he had working memory problems?

To be honest it will depend on the teacher. Some would know what you were on about, be sympathetic and observe dd to see if they agreed. Others might rubbish it with an "any old excuse" attitude. Some will be somewhere in between. If you generally have a good relationship with the teacher I would mention it though!

I think we get on OK with him. He's a young guy though and I very much get the impression that teaching is his job not his vocation and he does not want to incur any extra work in relation to any child.

I went in early to talk to him a few weeks ago and said that I was concerned about dd's ability to follow instructions, did he think there was a problem. He showed me several examples where she clearly did not get it or forgot half way through. They I said, does this go beyond what in your experience is normal for a 6 year old, does she need extra help? Oh no, no extra help needed was the response. I can see where I went wrong - I bundled an easy and a hard question together. I need to plan my strategy better.

I dread dealing with this though. We have stuggled so much to deal with ds's social issues at school and the fact the other kids perceive him as a "bit wierd", the thought of doing it all again is almost unbearable.