I don't understand how dd sees things

[GooseyLoosey]

Dd is 6 and the youngest child in Yr 2 (late Aug birthday). She is a quiet child and is in the middle groups at school for everything.

Her father and I are pretty accademic people. We both have degrees from Oxford and fairly glittering accademic records. Ds(7) learns like a sponge.

dd struggles to understand anything that has any level of abstraction - no matter how many times it is explained. Her homework at the weekend was to work out how many lego bricks it would take to build a 10 stair staircase. She could not understand the instructions or the example (it showed you steps 1, 2 and 3). Even when we built it together, she was still not completely clear what she was supposed to be doing. I just could not understand how she could not see this and it drove me nuts. I have had similar problems explaining fractions and odd numbers. She can answer questions that I have explained to her, but could not apply the same principles in a different context (so if we did fractions looking at slices of cake, she would have problems applying it to a basket of apples).

I worry that she has more problems grasping these things than she should but just sails under the radar at school. Her teacher says everything is fine but she does not always listen to instructions or try as hard as she might. I am not sure this is true - I think she does not understand the instructions and is then unable to set about the task she is given.

Do you think I am worrying about nothing? At her age, I would have got all of this stuff easily and ds certainly did. I have no problems that she does not get it - I just don't know how to work out if she needs help or is just a normal kid.

Should have said, I did ask why the SATS scores parted company with the others and no real answer was forthcomming. I wondered if it was because there were some sort of objective assessment criteria for them and not for the others.

Well, frankly, I would be outraged at labelling a 5 year old in those terms - particularly one who had already achieved what is expected of an average 7 year old!

Could you just back off completely for the rest of this year and see what happens?

If you where teaching me maths - or sitting and doing my math homework with me at that age - I would like your dd, I would be cringing inside so bad that I would stumble so much. The more you ast down with me to do it the more I would panic as I would know that you find it easy and wouldn't understand how I just don't get it.

I remember starting work in a pub and the boss man explaining how to calculate 15% VAT, he explained and the penny dropped - fuck why couldn't the teachers have explained it like he did it all made sense-its so easy isn't it. I stood there and was able to do it in my head just as he said.

I was pretty annoyed - particularly as the teacher clearly saw it as a pattern and had never seen fit to speak to me about it or mention it in anyway.

As I really do not want that to happen this year, I have spoken to her current teacher about it and as a result, my only involvement as far as dd is aware is in making sure that she does her best to pay attention in lessons. She does not seem stressed by this as she is always eager to check with her teacher whether he thinks she listened to what he was saying.

You are probably right - I need to chill a bit. MN is great for a sense of perspective (and valuable spelling tips).

ivykaty44 - I worry that that is exactly the effect I have had. Seems I have as much to learn as she does!

I learnt a lot of mental maths when I worked in that pub, pour a round of drinks for 40 men at lunch time in one round did marvles for my emntal arithmatic and the boss was to mena to get a computer till as this was back when Adam was a lad.

It was also the fact that the maths was practicle, for exapmple if your dd had to share a bag of sweets- go and buy her bag of sweets and ask her to share them with a mate and her sister so it is fair and they all get the same- I bet she could do it

I do feel so sorry for your DD. With such academically brilliant parents and a clever brother she must feel very inadequate.

GooseyLoosey the age of your DD may be highly relevant. As an August baby from what I have read, it takes years for this to unwind developmentally and for your DD to be at around the same developmental stage as her year cohort. She is currently 15% younger than the oldest in the year.

We saw a huge change when our DD went from being youngest in the year to being oldest (we changed countries).

Look at what your DD was doing last academic year. If she was just 4 weeks younger that is what she would be looking at now.

Goosey - I think it's great you are questioning your expectations of her. It is fecking frustrating when they 'don't get' something that seems so basic, especially when in other ways they are quite bright.

My friend has a Yr2 6 year old daughter and for various reasons I do a lot of her homework with her or check it. I also play a lot of games with her and listen to her read etc. (She's like another daughter, or at the very least a niece.) She is 'top' in maths, reading, spelling etc in her class, yet she can drive me to distraction when doing her homework - she can follow quite difficult concepts, has been good with numbers etc since she was really young, but will still do the same things as your DD. 43-38-33-28-30 She can read bits of 'chapter books' with long words she has never seen before - then struggles with where/that/those... and that's when she wants to do it - when she doesn't she's a right little mare

What I'm saying is that she sounds like a very normal 6 year old :)

Goosey Loosey I too have a dd in year 2 only she is a November birthday. I would not expect her to be able to explain why she thinks 2 off 33 is 30 or 29 and neither would I expect her to be able to keep taking 2 of a number like you explain.

I keep it a lot more simple than that would do 33 - 2 45-2 etc not keep going with the same one as that can be very confusing to do.

DD3 is average in her schooling apart from in Math where she is above but that I would still not expect her to be moving into doing yet.

Also if you and dh plus ds are all academically she could easilly be feeling under pressure

She is a couple of days older than a child in the year below her - being born in August does make a huge difference. It doesn't sound to me like there is a problem with her ability - to be average in a class where most people are older than her is good going and 2bs at the end of year 1 is better than average - that's the 'average' grade for a child at the end of Year 2. If you're not really careful, she's going to switch right off - it sounds possibly that she already has. She needs to be able to play and to have pressure taken off her. There is nothing more damaging to a child's future that to be put under so much pressure that learning is a chore and that all pleasure is removed from it. And Maths is just ONE subject - as a nation we seem to be obsessed with it (until we leave school and then apart from measuring carpet and working out the interest rate on your mortgage, nobody gives a s..t). Sorry to rant, but I've seen so many perfectly bright and happy children ruined by having high expectations placed on them too early so that they go through life feeling like they're failures before they even left the starting post.

My dd is a spring birthday in Y2 and is doing about the same in maths as your daughter, but occassionally had a blank on something. At the moment she doesnt 'get' time, telling the time etc, but she will, it just needs to sink in a bit. She is considered near the top of her class. Try not to worry.

Thanks all. I guess I should relax a bit. The subtracting 2 task was on pg 4 of a simple KS 1 book so I'm not sure how hard it was really - I think I may have explained it badly. If the issue of how much effort she put in to her work had not arisen, I'm not sure I would have been so concerned, it just made me unsure of what is really happening in her head.

You know, dd has had some of those books - some of the problems she can solve without trying, others she hasn't got a clue: it depends very much on what they've covered in class recently, and how her brain happens to be working in that particular moment. If she's tired, distracted, bored or simply has forgotten something...she can't do it.

Is it possible that you have put the 'not quite got to the abstract thinking part of maths yet' (which is v normal in an August born Y2 as everyone says) with the 'below average for effort' bit when they are actually unconnected?

I'm only asking because the latter would have worried me too - it doesn't quite make sense, though a) the NQT may have been 'below average' in her marking system or b) your dd may be bored in some lessons, as she really is quite above average in attainment, and therefore coming across 'switched off' or c) she may - just possibly - be underachieving because, unconsciously, it makes her stand out from the rest of the family.

Just a thought, but I certainly did the latter - I am bright enough, got top marks when I didn't have to work too hard, but was NOT going to compete with my very bright, very hard working big sister.

Goosey - friends DD does this and fairly easily, normal Y2 work, but she can go up instead of down, take 3 away instead of 2 etc - I think part of it's daydreaming!

I think what is happening in her head is being six :)

However, that said, I would still keep and eye on her and make sure she's progessing - even if not at the rate you'd expect her to.

It seems to me that you are projecting anxieties on your DD and so she is developing a mental block. I am saying this as I have seen it happen with my own child - but clearly I can only give you my experience!

My DD1, also 6 years old, but in Y1 - can seem exceedingly bright, gets things first time - but also exceedingly dumb, especially with maths. If she doesn't get something instantaneously it's like she gets a block - and the more you try and explain it, the more she panicks and loses it completely.

Could it be worth taking a step back with maths for a few weeks and then just do fun stuff like cooking, playing shops, etc? It might be more effective?

Hope you get to the bottom of this soon, but try and remain calm as children to pick anxieties up really quickly (I talk from my own mistakes here!)

I would say though that if she was a 2b in maths and literacy there surely can't be a big problem, as I thought they were way above average?

Chipping - OMG that sounds just like my DD!!!!!

Stop doing fractions and mental arithmetic with her at home, pleeeaaase.

She's probably tired after being at school all week, take her to the park or play dolls or something.

She is 6 and in year 2, I think your expectations are way to high. You are also probably teaching her differently to the way school is - you are using an abstract approach which may well be the complete opposite to her way of understanding.

I think you could be putting more pressure on her and she is guessing and panicking - she will realise that "everyone else" is cleverer than her.

Look at the research into "learning to learn" it's all about teaching our children how to learn and finding out for themselves which ways they like to learn.

sometimes it's too much for them after school.

she will start to get confused with what you ask her to do / what the school are doing. My dd is a spelling writing talking whizzkid, but maths is like russian to her.

I soemtimes try to help but have to be very careful to explain it to her as they do it in school. She gets very despondent if i pressure her at all.

like cargirl said, they do have really different methods and ways of approaching maths compared to how we learnt.

I bet dd is not dumb or even average

I bet she knows full well that big bro has IQ of 157 - that one will stick in her head

And that you & dad are super bright

if I was her I would keep things very secret indeed, and I bet she also has a little thing going on with her eyebrow on the quiet as well

would bet money she has stuff going on all of you geniuses simply have no idea about

bet you 3 annoy her a lot

I think you definitely need to back off a bit, if your efforts to 'explain things' to her are making her cry and making you frustrated, then it's unlikely to be helping her much. It's very hard to concentrate and learn when you're feeling upset and anxious and under pressure - especially if you're only six!

Worst case scenario is she turns out to never be particularly good at maths. Some people just aren't, including quite a few very intelligent people - my mum has a 'glittering academic record' too, always got top marks, won various academic prizes and got her PhD from a prestigious university, but she's never been able to grasp any maths beyond applying the very basic rules of arithmetic. Despite me and my dad trying very hard to teach her!

I have a maths degree and it's quite puzzling to me how some people can not 'get' this stuff, so I sympathise with how you must feel. But everyone is different and it would probably be equally frustrating for a 'sporty' person trying to understand how I absolutely can not learn to hit a tennis ball!

Goosey....having read through this thread, your comments about below average effort struck a cord.
DD1 is 4 in reception year, is bright and works with YR1 for literacy and maths. DD2 is 3 and would pretend that she couldn't do anything if you let her. As examples, she pretended she didn't know letters when she started last September at the Nursery class part of the school where DD2 attends. I had to tell them repeatedly that she could actually read, but even now, and I really believe this that she pretends not to know just 'one' word in each book. Or when she was given High Frequency Words she would pretendd she didn't know just 'one' in each set. She can swim 10 metres but would happily pretend she couldn't, all this unless someone told her to get on with it, her school swimming teacher does this and she gets on with it. She now gets on, when told firmly to concentrate and get on, with reading and learning.
When I was a child I used to look out the window all the time as if I was not paying attention, but could do the work easily. I think my eldest is 'studious' but youngest would try to get away with it, but is no less capable.
I too sometimes find it incredibly frustrating when DD2 seems to not get something, but I actually think that she does but likes to pretend she doesn't?! Some sort of control thing? When DD1 reads, she will always pipe up with suggestions for words DD1 stops at, so she then likes the competition of it. DD2 really does need to be firmly encouraged.
Do you think that this could be the case sort of/somehow with your DD? Do really think she doesn't get some things?
Another thoughtI know that I learnt things certainly maths in probably not the normal way, and if I explain a mathematical idea to a child it does not seem to be the way others would explain it.
Personally if reports say beloew average effort that is what I would think about, and I tell my DDs that they have tp put in 100% effort all the time.

Is she bored in lessons? Her grades are well above average, but she is in the average group doing average level work. Elibean mentioned this, and I had this at school - the teacher thought I was very dreamy/distracted, but when I finished my work I would just wait for the others to finish and look out of the window rather than ask for more work (who would do such a thing!)