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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Calling Scottish mums - should my 4.5 year old start P1 in August?

136 replies

septembersong · 10/01/2011 21:44

DS1 was 4 on 11 Dec, and is due to start school in August. But I feel reluctant to send him as he will be one of the youngest. He goes to nursery 3 days a week while I'm working, and they say he is ready to go, no issues on the development front. It is just me, for some reason I would prefer to send him older than younger. But maybe holding him back wouldn't be the right thing for him? Interested in the thoughts of other mums with experience of this dilemma, especially those in Scotland, as I think the norm is to start at 4 down south, which is different to here.

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gaelicsheep · 11/01/2011 22:59

Although I will admit I might feel the same south of the border for different reasons. So much has changed since I was at school (I'm getting old, me).

suzikettles · 11/01/2011 23:06

Ds has a November birthday and it hasn't crossed my mind to defer. Having said that, if he'd been Jan or Feb I almost certainly would have.

It is strange to think that he'll start school at the same time as his March born cousin when my nephew can seem streets ahead of him sometimes (having said that, it comes and goes - they definitely seem to grow both physically and emotionally in spurts!), but I've no doubt that he'll hold his own at 4.8 and will be ready to go.

suzikettles · 11/01/2011 23:22

Actually, thinking about it, when I was at school it was so routine for Jan/Feb born children to start school at 5.5 rather than 4.5 that a child would have been considered to have been starting school early going in the year they turned 4 rather than it being considered a deferral going at 5.5.

I can only think of one person that I knew in my year, at any point in school, with a 1973 birthday (January born) - the rest of us were 1972. [old gimmer]

AitchTwoOh · 11/01/2011 23:33

as i understand it, this is the law. no child has to start school if they aren't 5 on the day in august that term begins.

but if they've been in nursery since three, you've had your whack from the cooncil and they're not paying for any more. so you are out of there unless you have the money to cough up for it.

net result. people who have money get to choose, people who don't, don't. as if there isn't already a private system...

MintChocAddict · 11/01/2011 23:52

I'm thinking about this at the moment too. DS1 just turned 4 (Dec birthday) and due to register in a week or two for P1. Completely torn.

Question for Aitch - He only started council nursery in August 2010 due to my previous work situation, so will only have had three terms by June '11.

Do you think that GCC would provide extra funding given we didn't use the two terms he was entitled to from his 3rd birthday until summer 2010?

suzikettles · 11/01/2011 23:55

That's what I read too Aitch. Technically, your child could be 5 on the 17th August and you could defer entry to school for a year.

The council were telling our (private) nursery this year that only a limited number of 3 year olds would get the Partnership funding and it's likely that no 3 year olds will get it next year (obv state nurseries will still get it but that's no use if you're working average office hours).

They're stuffed financially so I doubt they'd pay out a penny more than they absolutely had to, so yeah Jan/Feb only. Other councils with higher percentage of people who are eligible to pay council tax might be more lenient. [cynic] [east dumbartonshire envy]

suzikettles · 11/01/2011 23:57

Mint - I very much doubt it, but you could ask.

We only got funding for ds this year as his previous nursery was refused Partnership status, but I doubt it would cut much ice (not that we're defering so the point's a bit moot)

gaelicsheep · 12/01/2011 00:03

I'm totally confused now! DS was 4 last July and I know nothing about registering him for P1, yet he would start this August (a year too late IMO as I said). Have I missed something mega important, or would it be automatic since he's already in the school nursery?

gomez · 12/01/2011 00:07

Re: no deferrment in the old days. In Fife certainly there was no need because you didn't start until you were 5 - I am a Jan birthday and didn't start school until the Easter term after I turned 5. There were if I recall 3 intakes Summer, Christmas and Easter and it was the removal of this which led to the current mad system.

To be fair this led to the strange scenario that if you had a Jan to March/April birthday you could be a Christmas leaver at 15, before sitting exams....whilst at the other end those with September to December birthday had to stay on until the Christmas after they had sat o grades! So perhaps equally mad then

SacharissaCripslock · 12/01/2011 00:10

My DS1 has a November birthday and I had no trouble (from the council) deferring him and in getting the extra funding - I'm in Midlothian. His nursery were completely against this and I had trouble getting them to fill in the form but I filled in my part of the form and reasons for wanting to defer and there were no follow up letters or problems.

I didn't take them up on it as I decided to take my DS out of the nursery/school system altogether and HE him.

suzikettles · 12/01/2011 00:11

gs - different councils enrol for P1 at different times. My sil in Edinburgh did all this in December I think. Glasgow is next week so your council might be different.

Your council website should tell you. If you've missed it then I doubt it's a big deal unless you were wanting to do a placing request to a massively oversubscribed school.

gaelicsheep · 12/01/2011 00:19

Nope it's certainly not oversubscribed! Buried in a document on the council website I see registration is by the end of January. I would hope the school itself might mention this to the nursery parents, unless it's automatic.

hannahsaunt · 12/01/2011 09:35

IMHO it's not about readiness etc to start school at 4.5 but the impacts further down the line esp secondary transfer ages, puberty and tertiary education. In the great scheme of things, one more year at home now is great - there's plenty of time for everything else and being a little bit older for it all is good.

solongandthanksfor · 12/01/2011 09:57

Where I am, because of council nurseries being over-subscribed, my ds is unlikely to be offered a place until after the summer when he'll be nearly 3.8.

So the council will only have to fund him for one year of pre-school education if he's not deferred. Which imo seems really unfair, as many pre-schoolers will have had two years of funding before starting school. Wonder if this is an argument I could use to convince the council to pay for an extra year's pre-school? Ds's birthday is 31 Dec - so we are sooo close to the wire.

Going off on a tangent, I've always thought the situation with winter leavers a bit strange tho'. When I worked in schools, winter leavers were such a forgotten group in school - no wonder they were all de-motivated. I think the start/finish dates of Scottish schooling could do with a re-think.

mrspercival · 12/01/2011 10:31

gaelicsheep 'our' education system is far from perfect (i've got a huge list of things to improve!!) however I have several teacher friends south of the border, two of whom have worked in both countries and feel distinctly that Scotland offers the better education.

ihearthuckabees · 12/01/2011 10:32

With reference to Aitch's comments about deferment being available to those who can afford it, I suspect that the law that says a child doesn't need to start school til they're five predates the provision of funded nursery places, so it's created an anomaly.

I always thought that there was a clear cut-off date - if you're five before Dec 31, you go to school (barring special needs), but if the law says otherwise it throws up a horrible grey area for people, who then have to choose/fight for extra funding etc.

I'm appalled that there are nurseries who are being difficult about people wanting deferrals - whose interests are they taking in to account - the kids? or the councils'?

To those from England who feel that 5 is very old to start school, I don't think you can compare the systems between Scotland and England. Primary 1 here is a bit ahead of reception, as i understand it. The nursery system kind of absorbs reception type activities (I think). Once you reach Primary 1, you are fully immersed in the school system almost straight away - full days, five days a week, homework, the 3 Rs, large classes etc. I get the impression that in England you are eased into a bit more slowly.

mrspercival · 12/01/2011 10:42

IHEARTHUCKABEES Thats absolutely my understanding too, Reception classes in England seemed v similar to what mine did at nursery in Scotland. There was always confusion when talking to English friends what the differences between nursery, toddlers and pre-school meant with people in different areas using the terms for totally different things. Vive la difference.

AitchTwoOh · 12/01/2011 12:23

it's definitely august, there is definitely an anomaly and the councils are definitely not following the needs of their taxpayers.

believe me, i went into this in some detail last year...

AitchTwoOh · 12/01/2011 12:24

it's not full days straightaway here, though, i think it's about five weeks or so after starting you go full day. (on a personal note i was delighted... )

AitchTwoOh · 12/01/2011 12:26

it's not full days straightaway here, though, i think it's about five weeks or so after starting you go full day. (on a personal note i was delighted... )

Seona1973 · 12/01/2011 12:37

ds will go straight to full days when he starts in August!! - they used to do half days till the October week then last year they had 1 half day and then full time from day 2.

gaelicsheep - notices went up in the nursery and the school at the end of last week to say enrolment was this week, monday to thursday. I had to take his birth certificate and proof of address and get forms filled in so I dont think enrolment will be automatic as you may not be going to the school attached the nursery (quite a few of ours are getting placing requests for other nurseries). I'd check with the nursery and/or school as to when your enrolment times will be

Seona1973 · 12/01/2011 12:39

'for other schools' is what it was supposed to say!

ihearthuckabees · 12/01/2011 13:22

My Ds only had 1 or 2 weeks of half days Aitch. It must vary from place to place.

Not sure how I feel about the payment of nursery places for deferred kids. I think the Government of the time promised nursery places from age 3 up, so really they should be paid for til they go to school, whenever that is. But it is also unfair on those whose kids are eligible for less than two years of nursery care to get less than those who, because of when their birthday is, get more than two years. (Assuming we're talking about the financial side of things here).

Just thinking aloud, maybe it would be fair to say that people will get up to two years of paid nursery education. If you know you might defer your child's entry to school, you also defer their start date for nursery. Although this relies on you deciding you will defer before they've even started nursery, so not a great solution.

(Realises now why I don't work for the civil service, local authority etc - would be crap at the policy side of things)

AitchTwoOh · 12/01/2011 14:20

the gap exists between govt and council afaik. govt is only funding for jan-febs, won't do so for nov-decs. some councils are picking up the (fairly small, it's not a situ affecting too many) slack and some are not. it used to be the case that nursery staff could recommend children to defer and it would go through but no more.

and you know, it was all fairly do-able until they QUADRUPLED the cost of care. (which i don't disagree with, mind you, but they have to be fair about this two-month gap if so).

FiveOrangePips · 12/01/2011 21:31

I get confused by the English system, Reception, is it formal education, or nursery, but the same length as a school day? Do they start full time from the first day? I did read in a paper that lots of reception classes are big some over 30 children.

I wouldn't say the Scottish system is perfect, but I am happy my dc started full time education at 5 years old instead of 4+.

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