State education system, is it broken?

[minimathsmouse]

I believe the wheels have fallen off the state education system. You might not agree but I have read so many posts here from parents who have had and are still having huge problems with their child's school. Many people seem to have worries about standards of teaching, clashes of ideology and problems with making up the deficit with tutors and home study. Horrendous SEN provission, huge class sizes, lack of provision for able pupils, the list goes on. It is truely depressing to think so many children are not receiving the education they deserve.

How many people believe the whole system has failed? Are falling standards only due to poor teaching or wider problems that are not being addressed within the system?

Appletrees - your quote that "Children need the basics age 4-9 and then the world opens," is just a soundbite. You have no proof to back up your assertion that "the basics" and nothing but "the basics" should be taught precisely between the ages of 4 and 9 and that then all of Society's inequalities will be solved or even remedied. And it is unfair of you to condemn schools for the failings of children's parents - levels of attainment in individual children will necessarily be lowered by poor or ignorant parenting, even if inspired teaching and the helping of parents to help their children can reduce the gap (as already happens in good schools). Large numbers of atrociously neglectful or abusive parents who refuse to involve themselves in the education of their children, regardless of all attempts to encourage them, can and will lower standards for all. We should not let parents believe that only schools have a role in children's learning, even temporarily (as in "well, you were failed by your education, so we'll let you off the hook with your kids because you're too thick and indadequate to find a way to work out how to help them, but don't worry, your kids will do better than you and will support their children despite your poor example, because they will be able to read when they grow up"). You are being far too soft on parents and leading them up the garden path if you let them believe their children can become brain surgeons while they sit back and let the schools get on with it without providing any goodwill or support.

I agree with appletrees that schools need to re-focus on expert teaching of the basics, so that children can gain the skills for further study.

What about noise levels, classroom management, behaviour in schools, so many children in mainstream who have sen, children taught in classes according to chronological age rather than ability. Could improvements be made in these areas? If so how?

I went into School B this afternoon. Actually the kids were well behaved and having a good day However while the children were electing the child they thought best behaved,(prize at end of term) one little boy said "st*** pushed our teacher over" He pointed to the class teacher, who just smiled rather weakly.

These children are 4-7 yrs old! I read the link about HTs hiding poor behaviour from ofsted, if people are unwilling to admit there is a problem, will it ever be dealt with?

ps and I do only mean goodwill and support - I don't see my children's school expecting parents to do anything at home that even an almost completely illiterate parent couldn't help them with.

Rabbit, Appletrees was quoting me

"You are being far too soft on parents and leading them up the garden path if you let them believe their children can become brain surgeons while they sit back and let the schools get on with it without providing any goodwill or support."

I would like to think that at least some children from poor backgrounds could do well in life, despite their fickle parents.

While we are on the subject of mis-selling, I think state ed is rather good at leading people up the path. Many kids who have failed to grasp the basics are having remedial help at university. Many will drop out simply because they shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.

Appletrees, agreed, it's just a sore point at the moment.

Every night when my children come home from school I feel like I've missed them; I want to talk to them about their school day and help them chill out; have cuddles, have a nice dinner together and just enjoy being a family for a few hours.

They want to spend time playing, alone or with their siblings; they want to do some crafts, or play with dolls/cars/lego whatever or watch TV; my older DD plays the piano and wants to do some practice sometimes. Occasionally they want a friend around.

Yet somehow I have to (not most nights but very often) make sure we fit in some reading, writing and maths as I know that if I don't do it they will be slipping back (tried and tested - left for a month and all gone to pot!). So that is what I really resent - at 4 and 5 my children should not be doing anything at home after spending all that time at school...

Not your best quote, minimathsmouse! However, apart from that, I largely agree with what you have to say - there are definite issues affecting a lot of schools, including behaviour, increasing complexity of sen (given that the Government doesn't want to spend the huge amounts of money required to fund lots of spaces in special schools), the quality of teaching and management in some schools, problems with parental attitudes, colossal ranges of ability to deal with etc. These are serious and rather depressing issues. I don't think they can be dealt with by Appletrees' methods. I think they may require an awful lot more people willing to devote their entire lives to helping others at the expense of their own private lives in order to help deal with some of the colossal problems within our Society.

Which is why I get upset when some people make comments trashing the whole State education system. It does not fail everyone, despite its colossal challenges. It is not so broken that a whole new teaching method needs to be introduced.

Emy, what you describe is the main the reason I removed DS1 and 2 from school and elected to home ed.

No progress being made in school and feeling pressured to make up the defecit.

Parents should support and feel in accord with the policies, ideas and teaching of the school. They should be able to support their children by talking to them and instilling a willingness to learn (conform even) behave and apply themselves. However too many schools are delegating their responsibility to teach back to the parents.

rabbitstew, you are right, it's not broken, but it's not perfect either. I guess nobody here has a solution but is venting and exploring ideas.

There are a lot of teachers out there putting in a lot of effort against all odds, and I think we all recognise that.

However, as a parent often one feels a little frustrated and dissatisfied too at times....!!

minimathshouse - I bet you did. I often think about homeschooling but I don't have the time/energy/resources/courage to do it.

I wish I did though. I know for a fact that my kids would be better off for it - at the moment at least.

Minimathsmouse - do you not think some of the problems in universities are caused by the huge increase in numbers of people attending them? It stands to reason that the quality of primary and secondary education would have to have improved an unbelievable amount to enable nearly 50% of the population to attend university now without lowering the entry standards for university compared to 50 years ago. Even with good reading, writing and numeracy skills, are 50% of the population capable of doing an old-fashioned degree course? If not, then what are we actually wanting them to spend more time in education for? What skills are we expecting them to obtain at university? Going to university cannot be an end in itself for 50% of the population - there aren't that many natural academics amongst us. So, what should they actually be going on to learn and should so many students do it in a university setting?

Maybe I'm just very lucky but I happen to be very pleased with the state education my DC are getting.
My dd is making good progress and socialising well. I help her...but that is because I want to (I enjoy her love of learning).

Surely there are poor examples of teaching/schools in any system? And rabbitstew is right...the problems in Universities cannot be laid simply at the door of State education.

Emy, it is such good fun and my kids are thriving, yes it took some courage but for us it was well worth a few hours of agonising discussion.

Before we made any firm plans I did a study into the time school took up. I spent roughly 2 hrs a day involved in prep, lunches, sports kit, admin and travel not to mention factoring in parents eve and time spent holding my head in despair. I spoke to a teacher who said the quietest children were likely to get less than 14 mins of individual attention a term

We now spend two hrs every am on academic work and the rest is clubs, sport, art, projects, films, nature studies, baking, history topic, science, walks, theatre, pottery, museums and visits to NT properties and English heritage. Its great because I too am learning so much, both about my children and also all the topics we choose to follow.

Rabbitstew, I wonder just as you do. I don't think entry requirements have been lowered for university but I have read several articles about GCSE and A levels becoming easier. I guess this is why it is difficult for universities too acurately assess the merits of each applicant.

"too acurately assess" They wouldn't let me in !

Rabbit, are you not reading what others are writing?

It doesn't matter what parents believe -- if they are not helping the children it is to EVERYONE'S cost if the children aren't helped by some other facility. You just want to throw them on the scrap heap because of their parents? I am not with you.

Appletrees, I think you are not reading what others are writing.

At what point have I suggested throwing any child on the scrapheap? At what point will you admit that your ideas for school won't solve the problems you and everyone else recognise?

Seriously, you haven't read or absorbed the exchange between emy and minimaths. You might profess good intentions, but quite frankly the more you go on and on about getting the message through to parents, the more the feeling comes through that if they won't help, why should you help their kid.

Unless of course you are so distant from reality that you don't understand the kind of family conditions some children live with. And you think it's just a case of giving them the message that they need to help.

That exchange is just an example. You're assuming that your situation, of never being asked to support your child academically hat home, is normal. Well it's not! And you contradict yourself, denying in one sentence that parental support is required, and then bemoaning in the next that some parents won't offer support and we have to get the message across that they need to. You'll be back to complaining about plodders soon.

??? I don't put the whole onus on the parents, I merely point out that giving up on trying to get through to the parents for the time being, which is what you appear to be suggesting, is stupid. Schools cannot achieve miracles in a vacuum. Good schools can and do teach children to read and write to an acceptable level by the end of primary school and to be reasonably numerate, despite what you appear to think. But that isn't enough and we can only get more than that as a society if more parents are willing to get more involved. I personally don't want to wait for a generation or two before I start suggesting to parents simple ways in which they might improve their children's life chances.

No, I haven't suggested that at all: I have specifically said those efforts are needed.
But the results will be patchy, unreliable and long term. Please don't call me stupid, it's going to piss me off no end. Especially as you are making up rubbish about what I'm suggesting and what I'm saying: for example, that I don't think good schools can teach children to read and write to an acceptable level. Stop making stuff up.

And schools can, in fact achieve miracles. Don't lower your expectations. You are going to have to wait for a generation or two for change if you are going to rely on "getting the message" to parents. Take a look around you. Read the papers.

In fact I am pissed off with your arsey attitude and am off.

And I do not at any point say that parental support is not required - I say very clearly that goodwill and support are required. Support and goodwill are not the same thing as teaching your child to read instead of the school, which is what you seem to think most parents are having to do. I do not think reading a book at home with your child is teaching it to read, I think it is supporting it. And if you can't help your child with that because you can't read stage 1 reading books yourself, it will slow down your child learning to read considerably but will not prevent your child from learning to read well eventually. You will probably find that your child has to have more 1-1 attention than other children to enable him or her to keep up, but a good school will provide that. A good school shouldn't have to do that just because the parents are unsupportive rather than needy, though. And most parents do want the best for their children and appreciate guidance and support.

Parental academic support I said, which you did claim was not being asked for.

Now I'm really off and can't be bothered to read the rest of your post.