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Primary education

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State education system, is it broken?

535 replies

minimathsmouse · 14/11/2010 22:28

I believe the wheels have fallen off the state education system. You might not agree but I have read so many posts here from parents who have had and are still having huge problems with their child's school. Many people seem to have worries about standards of teaching, clashes of ideology and problems with making up the deficit with tutors and home study. Horrendous SEN provission, huge class sizes, lack of provision for able pupils, the list goes on. It is truely depressing to think so many children are not receiving the education they deserve.

How many people believe the whole system has failed? Are falling standards only due to poor teaching or wider problems that are not being addressed within the system?

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AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:26

illiteracy-assume that was intentional Wink.

Sorry, I really wasn't being mean, and my posts here are frequently badly typed (as indeed, shockingly, was my thesis-over 20 errors across it).

I hope you see the point I'm making, though, which is that the 'many people' who complain because errors aren't corrected or spelling 'prioritised' would not repsond similarly to your post, but would respect the thought that went into it.

On correction, I've seen kids write amazingly inventive stories, both creatively and stylistically (one talented Yr1 student this week wrote 50 lines in rhyme!) but badly spelt. Should they be told of the errors? Again, surely a matter of judgement on the teacher's part given their knowledge of the pupil and their 'courage' and 'resilience'. Should the teacher also be developing those attributes if they feel they are lacking? Yes.

AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:30

rabbitstew's parenting is not an issue-she seems to have an ace relationship with her son, and many kids do learn to read early

My son recognised shop names at 1 from logos. My Dad, just to see, wrote them out as words, and asked him to identify them-DS did.

If he's growing up going to Sainsbury's and aisles have numbers it's a natural focus for his cognitive pattern forming.

Not sure I really wanted the first word my son read to be 'Tesco' though Sad

stoatsrevenge · 21/11/2010 18:30

"Would-be teachers need "emotional intelligence" as well as academic ability, the education secretary, Michael Gove, said today but stuck to the party line that teachers should be drawn from the "top tier" of graduates."
Soundbite from Michael Gove on Friday.

And what did he mean by that one? I would think most people who wanted to work with young people would have a fairly high EQ to begin with. (Simple definition courtesy of wiki: the ability to identify, assess, and control the emotions of one's self, of others, and of groups.)

He's so full of s*.

rabbitstew · 21/11/2010 18:32

dolfrog - I do not understand you. Are you are saying I should not have read books to my children? Or that I should have told them to keep their hands off? I did not teach my children to read. I did attempt to teach my son to move, however, because at 17 months he still could not get himself to sitting, roll over, crawl, etc. He was also terrified of other children, which made it distressingly difficult to get him to socialise. I was at a loss to know how to get him to develop "normally."

So, please do not make rather patronising little comments implying you think I was deliberately working on him developing the wrong skills in him. He chose which areas in which he would develop. His development was all skew-wiff and I knew that, but absolutely no-one was offering to help me teach him what should have been coming naturally to him, and in the meantime he was rather inconveniently teaching himself how to read.

rabbitstew · 21/11/2010 18:34

Thank you, AdelaofBlois. As you can probably tell, I was rather upset by dolfrog's post.

pointythings · 21/11/2010 18:37

Dolfrog,

There are 3-year-olds who want to learn to read. They realise that letters and numbers have meaning. They ask their parents what those meanings are. Should we lie to them? Should we tell them 'You're too young to learn about that'?
Reading and writing may not be 'natural', but they have evolved to be essential, and have been so for a very long time.
The bottom line about making education work IMO is that there has to be flexibility. Some children will be ready to learn in a school setting at age 4, others not until age 7. The system in the UK is extremely rigid and so in that sense fails many - because children are pushed into a situation they are not ready for, or conversely, held back from learning the things they are ready for because the system says they should not. I'd like to see an education system where everyone - those who blossom later as well as those who start young - can have their needs met.
I've been lucky in that the nursery my DDs went to and the schools they are at now are doing this for them - I'd like everyone else's children to have this too.
Ultimately there is no one size fits all solution.

rabbitstew · 21/11/2010 18:41

And for those of you who are fussy about presentation, my apologies for the state of the last paragraph of my retort to dolfrog. All I can say is that I was practising something very unnatural (writing) in a distressed state.

AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:46

stoatsrevenge

I find what you said, and the whole issue of qualifications, hard.

This is partly becasue, although I would fully recognise that I don't have 'it' in the way I suspect Mrz or other teachers here do, both HE and primary assessments have always described me as 'a natural teacher'. So maybe that's EQ, and I just can't see it.

But I'm following this thread in between writing primary GTTR references and, since these people will hopefully be my colleagues soon, am rather shocked by the fact that none of them are safely predicted above a 2:2. Does that makes them bad tecahers? No, but it does raise serious questions in my mind about their ability to think critically about their own practice, to absorb and understand educational literature, and to understand the fundamental points of intelelctual activity (mrz's 8 points), because all indications are that they cannot do this in a subject they have chosen to study.

Of course, those with first class degrees can also beo shit teachers, but I'm not sure raising the issue is irrelevant, even if (as I found to my cost recently when doing a lesson for a fairly posh prep school job) I'm deeply pissed of by the assumked mapping of '3 Rs loving, basic skills' onto 'high degree results'.

pointythings · 21/11/2010 18:46

Rabbitstew,

You made your point and were remarkably polite about it.

minimathsmouse · 21/11/2010 18:47

Having grabbed up my dictionary, back to say thank you AdelaofBlois but my spelling really is that atrocious!
Should mistakes be pointed out? Yes in some circumstances. If the object and the focus of the lesson is to learn spelling and grammatical rules, then yes. However if a child has the creativity and the intellectual capacity to create such wonderful writing, then their achievement should be celebrated.
Can teachers play a part in building resilience? I read once that psychologists believed that adults who were resilient and tough had experienced some stress in childhood. It was found that some adults who lacked the capacity to cope with life?s stresses had not encountered stress in childhood.

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mrz · 21/11/2010 18:49

and some adults who have experienced stress as children are "damaged"

AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:53

minimathsmouse

There is a difference between resilience caused by 'stress' and the resilience caused by udnerstanding that part of a process, especially a learning process, is that things go wrong or can be improved. And that's a resilience good teachers get-a way of thinking that a lesson didn't go great, but not crumbling into doing nothing as a result.

One of the things that intrigues me a great deal at the moment is work being done on 'hard work' as a form of praise, and the suggestion that even the most able do best if they have faced difficulty and been praised for overcoming it-that the process of work itself is perhaps more important in the long-term than the result (i.e., in university terms, 'plodders' in the first year who are praised for woeking hard develop far from ploddingly overall, but their equally well performing 'natural intellects' fall behind.

AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:56

The implication being that when faced with someone who is naturally able to do soemthing, it is as important to praise them for their work than their achievement. Which builds 'resilence' when things are harder.

minimathsmouse · 21/11/2010 18:56

Dolfrog, my son started to read at 3 but perhaps more shocking for you, he was already mastering addition in double and trebble digits at 2.5 and started to speak in sentences at 12 months. Should I have told him to shut up and hidden paper, pens and books from him. Children often model their behaviour on what they see around them. We have books, we read them, he wanted to read.

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AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 18:58

Dolfrog is offensivelty trolling surely? Rabbitstew should have no worries, and i'm not dignifying that attack with further comment.

minimathsmouse · 21/11/2010 19:04

Agreed, maybe it is more important to praise the child's efforts rather than the outcome.

I have worked with a number of very able children who have had perfectionist tendencies. They often refuse to engage in any learning that challenges them because of a fear of failure. One child in particular wasn't making progress in all areas at school

I have often wondered what early life experiences could have contributed to this.

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AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 19:06

Yes. To go back to your OP is this one of your concerns about a systemic flaw-that a focus on measurable results is being communicated to learners, and so the braoder academic skills are missing?

If so, said prep school would make you weep

emy72 · 21/11/2010 19:22

I have worked with a number of very able children who have had perfectionist tendencies. They often refuse to engage in any learning that challenges them because of a fear of failure. One child in particular wasn't making progress in all areas at school

I have often wondered what early life experiences could have contributed to this.
----------

My daughter falls under this category.

I can honestly say that she was like this from birth and that I have done nothing to contribute to this. We are a balanced, loving and relaxed family.

We went to group therapy sessions with regards to my DD's speech and the final assessment was in the end that her brain was so fast that her mouth couldn't catch up and that she couldn't bear getting words out wrong.

I hate it when people imply that this trait is because of pressure at home/traumatic or stressful experiences, etc, it winds me up something chronic. I certainly wasn't putting a 2 year old under pressure to speak and her perfectionism is part of who she is.

minimathsmouse · 21/11/2010 19:23

Yes I think it is one of my many concerns. Able children often present as anxious. Some children are able to pick up on the anxieties of the adults around them.

I have seen a very bright child in yr1 lay on the floor and have the sort of paddy you might expect from a child of 18m. Not because she can not do what is asked but because just for once another child answered a question correctly. Interestingly this behaviour has started in yr1 and was not present in reception.

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minimathsmouse · 21/11/2010 19:24

Emy I am sorry, pls don't take offense, none is intended.

Every situation is different.

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AdelaofBlois · 21/11/2010 19:29

Emy72

Perfectionism is also a good trait-nobody would be any good at anything if they didn't wnat to get it right. And that children should be a little 'unbalanced' (not in a bad way) in not mitigating some positive traits with others (resilience?) is surely normal, just as some are better at some physical milestones than others.

DS1 seems very worried about being right. And he's been talked too and praised just as my DS2 has, and DS2 is a total 'try it over and over again until I acheive, or it or I break' loon.

But that tecahing can develop the skills that make perfectionism a tool rather than a hinderance, absolutely.

pointythings · 21/11/2010 20:06

I think a lot of issues about perfectionism have to do with the 1st child/2nd child dynamic - that certainly holds true in my family, I'm the perfectionist, my younger sister always cruised confidently through life. In the end we both did well and got what we wanted out of life. My DD1 is a typical older child, and we have consciously worked at instilling in her that perfection is not required and that there is such a thing as 'good enough'. She now knows that it's OK to write a first draft in a fury of inspiration, go over it and tweak it and smooth it out and that will give her a good finished piece of work with less stress.
DD2 is and always has been very confident, and we haven't parented them differently at all.
They are both well above average in everything, early speakers, early readers - just very different personalities. The teachers in their schools have always been able to handle those differences and make the most of both of them - flexibility, as mentioned in my earlier post.

rabbitstew · 21/11/2010 21:20

I do wonder what my attitude to teaching and learning would have been if I hadn't had my ds1. Perhaps people without experience of difficulty with their own child's development and with little experience of other peoples' children in a learning environment, can never fully understand.

Ds1, who was hypotonic, hypermobile, evidently incredibly early to develop receptive speech yet delayed with expressive speech (approaching age 3, if you wanted to have a chance of understanding him and get more than one or two words at a time: about the age when he revealed he could actually read books he had never seen before, fluently), physically delayed (gross and fine motor), exceptionally clingy to his mother and almost pathologically resistant to difficulty as a young child is now, at just over six and a half, bearing a remarkable resemblance to a relatively normal child, with totally normal humour and interests - and an exceptionally gifted one at that, with a phenomenal imagination and memory, highly articulate and with an unusual ability with numbers. He still has his difficulties, of course, or tendencies along the lines of his earlier difficulties, but these no longer define him. The compartmentalisationist (is this a word?!) tendencies of the medical profession prevented me from obtaining help for my whole child at the most appropriate time - I was given help building up his muscles and teaching him to move and improve the muscles in his mouth for clear speech, but not help with how to deal psychologically with his extreme avoidance of doing or being taught. I asked for help until I was blue in the face, trying to explain that a clearly intelligent child trapped in a useless body must be going through a colossal sense of anxiety and that by getting me to do the work of physically teaching him without giving me the skills to deal with the stress this was causing for both of us, would result in mental health issues for both of us and possibly an unhealthy parent-child relationship, because he would see me as an aggressor going against his wishes and not as a protector trying to help him if I got it wrong. I felt I was pretty much having to bully him into learning, uncertain how much practice was enough and being aware that, given my own personality, I was probably doing more than enough and stretching him too far each time, but not actually knowing that, so then vascillating between too much and too little and generally showing him how anxious I was about it, which only served to make us both worse. What a huge sigh of relief when he went to school and was finally treated as a whole child - a human being, not a list of symptoms and treatments. I actually now think he might make great contributions to society one day - when he was little, I was beginning to wonder whether he would be living at home with his mother for the rest of his life. And it was rather lovely watching him practice the piano this evening, excited that his efforts were making such a difference to the quality of his output. Hopefully, instead of being damaged by his early experiences and my reactions to them, he has ultimately been made a little bit stronger by them, because he understands a little bit about overcoming adversity. That's the way I like, optimistically, to view it, anyway.

And if my child can be quite so arse about face in his development and come out of it alright, then it just shows how complicated human development really can be and how open we should be to all the ways of encouraging it.

pointythings · 21/11/2010 21:31

Rabbitstew,

That explains your whole attitude towards state education so beautifully. Your positive attitude is awe-inspiring. What you've had to overcome makes my tussles with DD1's confidence issues seem insignificant.
Are you sure you don't want to be president?
But going back to topic - it was her (state school) teacher who spotted them, who worked with us to deal with them, who showed outstanding commitment and sensitivity towards my DD and who prevented her from getting turned off education in a big way.

rabbitstew · 21/11/2010 21:39

Ds2 is physically, socially, emotionally and cognitively advanced and has been since the beginning. If both my children had been like that, would I now constantly be pushing for them both to be given more tricky work?

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