State education system, is it broken?

[minimathsmouse]

I believe the wheels have fallen off the state education system. You might not agree but I have read so many posts here from parents who have had and are still having huge problems with their child's school. Many people seem to have worries about standards of teaching, clashes of ideology and problems with making up the deficit with tutors and home study. Horrendous SEN provission, huge class sizes, lack of provision for able pupils, the list goes on. It is truely depressing to think so many children are not receiving the education they deserve.

How many people believe the whole system has failed? Are falling standards only due to poor teaching or wider problems that are not being addressed within the system?

Yes appletrees some parents were also failed in primary education. (mine was boring and I spent most of it staring out the window! you can probably tell)

The main arguement for schools teaching the core skills BETTER and more EFFECTIVELY is because parents may lack these skills, but more crucially for some the parents lack interest.

For these children lose out under the current NC and in huge classes where there is little individual attention.

You know what all this springs from, with me, is that I believe, I KNOW, that a firm grasp of maths and English gives confidence, self esteem, enthusiasm, thirst for greater achievement and thus improves behaviour and raises the child's expectations of him or herself.

I don't think it's a case of improve behaviour first, then instil: I believe it's a case of instil, and the behaviour and effort will improve. Wtihout doubt.

I mean, if we wait until behaviour improves before we try to instil, we could wait forever. Better to learn and feel the benefits than simply to be told.

Has Appletrees suggested reducing the size of classes?...

that was an argument for changing the system across schools not for creating a tiered system, as, say Germany has ..

Mini, I don't see how we can have one type of school for "deprived" areas.

I still don't see (rabbit enlighten us) where is the "holding back" and where is the loss?

Appletrees I agree, too much teaching time is lost dealing with behaviour. I am off to School B this afternoon to deal with behaviour teach maths.

I think the purpose of school is to educate, the task of teaching staff is to raise attainment, this and only this will give opportunity to children from less than ideal backgrounds. No ammount of role playing and topic work can alone educate these children, however inspired the teaching.

Children need the basics age 4-9 and then the world opens. If a child can read and write well he can study anything he likes.

Appletrees - I admire your will to make things better for those children who are being failed by the education system. I agree with you that there are many children who are being failed at the moment. I also believe that throughout the history of education, many people have been failed and that the theory of education is a constantly evolving process. It is good to discuss ideas and discuss what works and what doesn't work - and where it works and doesn't work. And why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't work. And good to get involved and try to make things better. I even agree that the National Curriculum is a pain in the backside which good schools work around and bad schools get too hung up on.

The only thing I disagree on is that your ideas will improve things for everyone, rather than simply changing the status quo. But I think that is partly because I don't quite understand, in the context of my dss' school, what exactly would be chucked out of the curriculum and what wouldn't.

Don't think it was me who said 'patchy' but happy to take credit :)

Basically, we all agree that some schools are failing their children and others aren't. We don't agree on what to do about it, quite, yet.

Personally, I'm not sure what to do about it - but I am quite sure there is no single solution.

Appletrees at the school that won't allow parents to help, because even if there was ONE parent able and willing to listen to readers, it would make a difference. At dd's school, there are only 2 or 3 per year at most, and it makes a vast difference.

Big Clue in 'what to do' in recent posts on behaviour and lost time. Now what to do about behaviour in schools would be a good next-thread topic...

Back later...

How can a state school possibly hope to deal with the wide range of ability, needs and behaviour it encounters.

Does anyone have an idea how to deal with disruptive children in a class. Where parents appear to be part of the problem, and children are just dumped on teachers to solve behaviour or learning problems is there a solution.

Should disruptive kids mix with non-disruptive children is it a win win or does only the disruptive child and their parent(s) benefit.

Should we have mixed ability classess and mixed behaviour classes or separate them into streams?

My experience of primary state school is....not very challenging and limited homework....i dont think homework should be huge but should help keep parents informed of childrens learning and ability.

Also, a class will have such wide ability and behaviour that the more able students are not challenged. Can we only expect an average level of attainment from state education and the rest is up to the parents.

I feel that without SATs there wouldnt be books in shops showing what the curriculum is and i wouldnt have a clue whether my school was doing a good job or my child was developing essentials skills in maths, english and general education.

I say thank god for sats and publishers.

If i used homework and parents evenings as a guide i'd be clueless.

The only problem with SATs is they give a poor idea of shools who have mixed ability and behaviour children when compared with schools with selection criteria and wealthy parent / educated parent input.

I did OK at school and got a degree but wonder now if the difference between me and the very able children was parental input and upbringing to a greater extent.

I think we need learning targets so we parents can help our children achieve these and support their schooling.

My kids primary school is a lovely place but all other schools in the area seem to achieve more. I know this through parents taking their children off to other schools and reporting back that they are much better off....you cant help but feel a little envious.

Mind you if my child wasnt very able and just loved the learning environment im sure i'd be happy but what about those who feel their children should be doing better?

Back very briefly before cooking to say ..

"Children need the basics age 4-9 and then the world opens."

Mini -- I've wasted so many words when you encapsulated it in one sentence.

An amusing report in the Independent which adds weight to the comments of some posters here:
"Headteachers 'avoid Ofsted seeing worst pupils'"

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/headteachers-avoid-ofsted-seeing-worst-pupils-2136588.html

A local school didn't have a single regular member of staff working during Ofsted so it isn't only pupils they are trying to hide from inspectors.

Mrs are you implying that headteachers know they have weak teachers?

Oh yes, they know!!

Well the head teacher wasn't there either ...

Of course HT know

Good grief!

Claygate, what you say is very interesting. My problem is that I find it very hard to trust SATS and league tables as true accounts of how either pupils or schools are performing. Results seem to be marvellous, marvellous, marvellous, until you re-enter the real world and see reports and studies about student teachers, graduates, employee intake having a poor grasp of the basics, and 11 year olds not acquiring the skills they need to move up. So though there are some great performances, there is obviously a great deal of mediocre and poor education. Parents who are able and willing can make up for the missing jigsaw pieces, but parents who are not, can not. It's unfair I think to condemn the children for the failings of their families.

"for the failings of their families".

Hardly a failing of a family if one is not able/has a career/or simply wants the child to experience other things in the little time left.....like a relationship with their siblings....

....that's my biggest beef: it is my job as a parent to actually use the little spare time after school to my child's enjoyment as a member of the family - not to educate, tutor and make up for time lost at school! I don't see that as a failure!

I'm not praising the German education system at all, and many Germans would agree that it is deeply flawed. I was simply responding to your claim that the crucial time for acquiring literacy and numeracy skills was age 3 to 7 - children can start later and still acquire those skills, as Germany and many other countries show.

The German system is deeply unfair and divisive due to the three tier system. It has been proven to be one of the worst countries for dependency of pupil achievement on parental background. Yes at primary level the core skills are prioritised, but often the teaching is dull and uninspiring. High achievers still progress, and even some middle achievers due to heavy parental input and widespread private tuition, those who don't achieve are just deemed to not be clever enough and sent to the Hauptschule when they reach the age of 10, which will then give them zero chance of gaining a decent job when they grow up. The whole culture of teaching is entirely different insofar as teachers in Germany don't feel any real responsibility to monitor pupils' achievement - they feel that their job is to teach, and it's the pupils' (and parents') job to learn it somehow - and if they don't, then it's entirely the child's failure, not the teacher's.

My nephew has just started school and is currently working his way through the letters of the alphabet at his German primary school. At exactly the same age my dd was writing a diary in the style of Samuel Pepys, enthused and inspired by her Fire of London topic.

No no, I know exactly what you mean and I have a lot of agreement. See no homework policy above. I'm just reiterating my point (with great tedium no doubt!) that six and a half hours at school should be enough for up to nine year olds and parents shouldn't be expected to pick up the slack.

It's great that parents want to do more and get involved but I think they can do so with all the creative stuff and generate their own projects rather than spend the time making up for what children haven't learnt at school.