WWYD - DS(4) pooed himself TWICE today and came home covered in shit

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

DS has been going for a week of half days and no accidents, though I did tell them he was at nursery. Today was his first full days and as soon as I collected him the smell would have knocked you sideways! I had DS 2 (2) and DS3 (10w) so just went to the car thinking he must have just had an accident, but when I peeled off his trousers he was covered. It was all over his shoes, his socks, on the back of his trousers (you could see it soaked through, like he had sat in a muddy puddle) and once I wiped away the wet stuff, his legs were totally caked in dry poo, it had obviously been there hours. Half a pack of wipes wouldn't even get it off so had to put on his spare jogging bottoms and take him home for a wash (5 min drive). I asked him when he pooed and he said at lunch and when he was running outside. I can understand a missed wee as it can sometimes be harder to spot, but his trousers were soaked in shit and he stank.
They also 'lost' most the parents emergency contact forms (a teacher came out and accused alot of them of not giving them in - which in itself was only spotted after a week! and it transpired they had lost them and found them the next day)
I sent DS back in the pther day to get his indoor shoes and the teacher came back out saying he had to keep one pair there (I said I wanted them home to clean them, but infact I want to keep track of them) and DS blurted out they were lost - £40 and lost within a few days, but have given them the benefit of the doubt that they are just misplaced for a bit - they are very well labelled. They are supposed to have indoor and outdoor shoes, but after the first few days they said they weren't enofrcing it for a while to let them settle in

Last few are just side issues as it seems to be one thing after another at the moment.

WWYD about DS coming home in this state?

I really relate to this op as I have concerns about my dd having 'accidents' at school (either variety). She is on medication for chronic constipation and thankfully this seems to keep the issue under control and (so far) no problems at school.

The posts staing that children should not be sent to school until any toilet training issues are sorted out are frankly unrealistic. For whatever reason in the UK we have a school system that expects the majority of 4 yo's to be in full time education. This means that the staff teaching the reception year groups are expected to manage the problems very young children can commonly have with going to the toilet on time and putting their shoes on or changing for PE etc. etc. Every Child Matters.

Excluding children is not the answer but perhaps a more 'Kindergarten' style treatment of young children (up to 6) with a better staff/ child ratio is preferable but of course that has to be properly funded. So in the meantime we have to manage with the thought that our children in reception are going to be left to their own devices more and may struggle at times. My dd has already told me she thinks school is 'boring' and I am sure that is because funding issues coupled with a large intake means the children are not getting enough adult input in their time at school. Either socially or scholarly!

Great for you, systemsaddict. You are obviously very fortunate to have a school like that and the school is very fortunate to have the required resources. Not sure what those strategies involve, but if the teacher change soiled pants on a regular basis (as some people on this thread suggest they should be doing otherwise they are in the wrong job), they certainly IMHO go beyond the call of duty

..systems addict said "toilet training is a developmental issue with very wide variation, and actually (according to my health visitor) just-turned-4 is still within the norm for boys to be having toileting accidents, especially poo ones."

After 30 years working with 4 year olds I would disagree with your health visitor. It is in my experience extremely unusual for normal, healthy 4 year olds to be soiling themselves. This is why they start school at 4 - they are invariably toilet-trained, eat solid food, can converse and make their needs and wants known. In other words, after a short settling in period they can mange themselves satisfactorily outside the home for a few hours. Odd accidents happen, and again in my experience they are dealt with tactfully and kindly.

But toilet training is firmly within the remit of parental responsibility, as is putting children on solid food. ( and yes I have had a child arrive at school with a bottle of thickened feed, with the top of the teat cut off)

SHower facilities are not commonplace in older buildings.

I applaud anyone who works in early years ed Irisha - either pre-school or receptions years - because imo it is a very difficult job with a lower staus than it deserves. BUT if I was an Early years teacher I would expect to have to deal with a bit of poo and wee ... maybe I am wrong but it would seem to me to come with the territory of teaching very young children?!

That is one of the reasons the only teaching I would ever consider doing is with over 18's or possibly A-level - that would avoid the issue (I hope).

I was advised on another post that all schools should have a policy available for parents to see on incontinence issues - probably in health and safety. in the MS school that my 2 DS attend - in reception a letter is sent with all the bumpf when they start school, that asks if you give your permission to change your child if they soil. after reception it changes as all children will at this point be over 5. After 5, if there is a medical or social need to change your child - which is agreed by the school, they change your child. If it's just a 1 off - the parent is called in. As you think that there could be an underlying medical issue, i would suggest discussing with the school and signing any forms that they officially require. If office or teacher seems vague, ask to speak to the senco.
Hope you find the school understanding on this. Good luck.

Malaleuca - I have just read your post and whilst I agree that it would be considered normal to have your child potty trained and on solids before starting school, there are many factors at work that do not always make it easy for even the most dedicated of parents. In our area, a child cannot be sent to an enuresis clinic until they are 5. If with medical intervention your child is still soiling, very little help is available to give to below this age. if your child is a healthy, well balanced child - but soils, CAMHS do not seem to want any involvement. diagnosis of any medical condition can take many years. I personally have waited 2 years for a dieticians appointment for my youngest and am still awaiting diagnosis for an 8 year old . Parents i know have struggled years to get help with soiling and then are met at schools with another hurdle. Unless some intervention works suddenly, I will have a reception child who cannot eat solids - and soils. But my child will be clean, on time, well nourished, alert, read to and listened to and all the other parenting skills necessary to help their education. I'm sure there will be other children who are potty trained and can eat solids that have parents that don't ensure any of the above. Tolerance and understanding is required for both.

Irisha -where have you got this 'school is not compulsory til Yr1' crap? School is compulsory in the term following the child's 5th birthday, which for 2/3 children will mean 1 or 2 terms of reception is obligatory.
I think there is a huge amount of ignorance from some on this board.Non-toilet trained children is never down to parental laziness. What parent would want to be clearing up shit with their 4+ child.Certainly not a lazy one!.Potty training a child who is well-ready is not hard work.

my son is yr4 (almost 9) and still soils himself several times a week. he has been on and off meds for years, and had investigations for encopresis etc etc.

i have lost count of the number of times he has come home soiled. he won't even tell me he's had an accident if we are at home/ out. he always claims he hasn't, even if you can smell it a mile away. no teacher would ever manage to get him to admit it, i'm sure.

he's seeing the school counsellor and the gp has tried hypnosis.

but actually, when he has come home with it seeping through his clothes, the teacher hasn't even noticed. they are all 'Oh? Really?' when i go in - even if i can see him across the playground and see immediately.

op - you can speak to the school staff, but tbh i think there is so much to do with 30 kids in the class, they probably didn't even notice.

sad for everyone really - when i've had to speak to teaching staff, they have been genuinely upset that he hasn't felt able to tell them. me too.

My DD had toiltetting issues, both with wetting AND soiling when she started reception. As she was a spring born dc, she was legally required to be in reception full time from the Easter of her reception year. The soiling was finally rectified when she was halfway through Y2, therefore 7 years old, with the aid of lactoluse medication. The wetting was due to an 'immature development of nerves in her bladder' due to her being preemie, and was finally rectified during the day when she was halfway through Y4 (age 9yo), and she finally stopped night wetting with the aid of medication 8 weeks ago at the age of 12 years and 4 months. I can assure you that it was not bloody laziness on my part, as in the time it took to get her clean and dry, I managed to get my 2 ds's clean and dry at MUCH earlier ages. DS1 was clean and dry, day and night at 19 months old, and has never had an accident of either sort. DS2 was clean and dry during the day at 2yrs7months, and at night at 3yrs6months. So it was not through 'laziness' that DD wasn't.

I ended up taking DD out of her first school, as they would leave her in this state, and refused to even call ME to clean her up. MY advice, OP is to take your dc to the doctors, and also to change schools!

I'm a reception teacher and I can't believe the little mite was able to get into such a state. I will admit that I don't always 'sniff out' all the little accidents my diddlers have but a mess like that would surely have been sniffed by the teacher.

The first few weeks in reception are very difficult and as a teacher i find it the hardest few weeks of the year, always forgetting each september just how tiring it is!

There are rules about changing children but then there is common sense and care of a child in distress.

When cleaning up a child I always ensure the child is happy and that I am protecting myself from allegations of abuse. I have a low level shield / art cupboard door by the sink where i can clean up little messes where I can be seen by adults but the child cannot be seen by there peers.

For bigger messes i always inform my TA and go into the toilet always leaving the door open so i am not alone in a closed room with the child.

Starting school is a huge step for four year olds and it is hugely important that children know that they can talk to the teacher about anything and that they are there to provide the care that they need while they are away from their parents.

Sorry for the long post but I feel so sorry for the poor little lad x

Thinking your post made me tearfull. You sound so understanding and caring. Its such as shame though that you feel you have to be so careful to protect yourself from allegations of abuse.

I feel very sorry for your ds, too. There has been a certain lack of sympathy for your individual situation here in the dash to make general points about who is responsible for a child's accident, and how little time there is to deal with such things. There is a difference, I think, between explaining how what happened might have happened and trying to excuse it. There is no acceptable excuse for what happened, although probably plenty of explanations that would make it seem less bad. Of course it is possible to be uncertain of the source of a smell, to not even smell it, for a child to deny it has had an accident, and for a teacher to be just too overwhelmed to cope with a class with so many issues and no TA to help, worrying that hardly any teaching is getting done; but none of these things in any way excuse what happened to your ds. Hopefully it was an unfortunate one-off that won't happen again and that could happen in any busy school, but the teacher should be made aware of what happened so that she can know to be more alert in future (and not be so easily excused if it does happen again).

Of course, if you wanted to make excuses rather than agree that a situation is unacceptable, you could make similar points about people in hospital - they may occasionally shit themselves and need a bit of help with feeding themselves, but the nurses are far too busy doing more important jobs to always have time to deal with it or notice it. There are just too many patients doing it, you see, and it really does interfere with the main business of the hospital. People don't go into nursing to do nothing but wipe bottoms all day, after all, and it's not as if the patients came (or should have come) into hospital because of their incontinence and inability to put spoon to mouth - they came to be treated for something else.

I'm afraid I don't think I would react very well to that response if I were to visit my mother in hospital to find her starving to death, covered in bedsores and lying in her own excrement, even if I did understand that the nurses were very overworked and didn't intend to be deliberately unkind. I certainly wouldn't turn a blind eye towards it and accept it as the status quo!!!!!

I think some of the posters are losing sight of the problem here. A 4 year old child was left in poo for a prolonged period of time. That is unacceptable. The school should have a policy to either call the parent to clear it up ir arrange to do so themselves. All the arguing about whether the teacher should or shouldnt do it is academic (pun intended!) Its about common sense. OP - I would get hold of the schools policy on this and have a nice but firm chat with the teacher. It could be that they had all been playing outside so she/he woudlnt have noticed so its only fair to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think if you apporach it in the right way it should be a case of flagging it up to them, listening to what they say and your expectations if it should happen again so perhaps they will be more alert next time. If it happened again or you werent happy with the explanation I woudl talk to the HT and consider changing schools.

The crux of the matter here seems to be that the school claims to have lost their details and so couldn't contact them. In which case,if that was true, this should have been logged and then the child cleaned up at school - it's just common sense. They can't have not noticed because they said they'd looked for your details.

However surely school policy should be that if a child wets themselves they can easily change and put their stuff in a bag, but if they poo themselves the parents should be informed and come to collect them to give them a bath etc?

The options here were to clean him up or leave him - and the school actually chose to leave him. Unbeleiveable.

My daughter left in v.bad state in reception; school behaved atrociously(?) and formal complaints with GTC, Ofsted and Dept of Education still ongoing.... but will not be bullied into doing nothing.