WWYD - DS(4) pooed himself TWICE today and came home covered in shit

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

DS has been going for a week of half days and no accidents, though I did tell them he was at nursery. Today was his first full days and as soon as I collected him the smell would have knocked you sideways! I had DS 2 (2) and DS3 (10w) so just went to the car thinking he must have just had an accident, but when I peeled off his trousers he was covered. It was all over his shoes, his socks, on the back of his trousers (you could see it soaked through, like he had sat in a muddy puddle) and once I wiped away the wet stuff, his legs were totally caked in dry poo, it had obviously been there hours. Half a pack of wipes wouldn't even get it off so had to put on his spare jogging bottoms and take him home for a wash (5 min drive). I asked him when he pooed and he said at lunch and when he was running outside. I can understand a missed wee as it can sometimes be harder to spot, but his trousers were soaked in shit and he stank.
They also 'lost' most the parents emergency contact forms (a teacher came out and accused alot of them of not giving them in - which in itself was only spotted after a week! and it transpired they had lost them and found them the next day)
I sent DS back in the pther day to get his indoor shoes and the teacher came back out saying he had to keep one pair there (I said I wanted them home to clean them, but infact I want to keep track of them) and DS blurted out they were lost - £40 and lost within a few days, but have given them the benefit of the doubt that they are just misplaced for a bit - they are very well labelled. They are supposed to have indoor and outdoor shoes, but after the first few days they said they weren't enofrcing it for a while to let them settle in

Last few are just side issues as it seems to be one thing after another at the moment.

WWYD about DS coming home in this state?

NUT guidance states that teachers should not have to change children- however, directing someone else (a TA for example) to change a child is within their remit.

Personally, I agree with Greensleeves.

If you had sent your child to school in the same state he came home, school would quite rightly inform social services. School has a duty of care to the children, and staff act in loco parentis. They have not done so and have been negligent.

Completely appreciate the point about the teacher being responsible for 30 children - but I am just wondering whether this notion of "teaching" as being somehow an entirely different sort of activity from other sorts of care and socialisation really applies in the same way in Reception, particularly as this is now part of the Early Years Foundation Stage?

tethersend as a teacher I have often had children arrive in school at 9am caked in poo - obviously been there all night... and yes I've cleaned them up for the child's sake but
what I object to is the assumption by some parents that it is my job to do so

brassband nothing up my sleeve which is why I hoped you had a suggestion

that is a separate issue mrz and not relevant

if the child soils himself in your care, during school hours, then it IS your responsibility

and if you don't want that to be the case then you should consider a different career

personally what delights me about the foundation stage is that the work is completely holistic - you cannot effectively teach a child of this age without also caring for them, physically and emotionally - trust and comfort are essential components of a child's learning readiness and teachers who don't embrace this worry me, frankly

mrz, I am a teacher too and have had to deal with the same (and I teach secondary). It is invariably a CP issue, and is dealt with appropriately- ie by informing the CP officer (and most likely SS) as the parent has been negligent.

A child should never be allowed to sit in his or her own faeces- as teachers, we act in loco parentis and need to at least arrange for the child to be changed. Not to do so is failing in our duty of care. Would anybody really leave a child sat in faeces to prove a point about whose responsibility it is to change them?

I would completely agree that within the foundation phase teaching is holistic.

However, until class sizes are reduced dramatically and/or the employment of more TAs is funded then there is still the issue that changing a child takes the member of staff away from the rest of the class. Which isn't so much of a problem if it an occasional occurence, but if 5 or 6 children in a class of 30 are having accidents every day with only one teacher, and it takes 5 minutes to change and clean up each child, then 29 children are being left without a teacher for nearly half an hour every day. Which is far from ideal.

It is the teacher's resposibility to ensure that the child is changed, though.

Even if that means asking another member of staff to do it.

tethersend which other member of staff do you suggest?

Anyone not protected by NUT legislation, to be blunt.

tethersend and I am the CP officer and from experience SS wouldn't do a thing.

My earlier point which seems to have been totally lost is that some children (for a variety of reasons) have toileting accidents and appear quite happy to sit in as they don't tell and adult when it happens and they won't admit they have had an accident when asked and short of insisting they allow me to pull their pants down to see if it is them what do you suggest?

So, considering the proposed TA cuts, who does that leave in a small school?

The dinner lady?

My son has this problem and it stems from the fact that the sight of his own poo in the potty used to make him vomit. He therefore hates wiping himself and tries to hold on until he gets home to a familiar adult. Yesterday was the first accident he'd had at school but I believe it had only happened just before picking up.

The school have a policy of changing children with wet clothes and usually soiled clothes too, although a friend of mine's ds was doing it so frequently and with no SN or medical condiation that it became disruptive and they called her to do it.

Either way something should be done. My ds has also had wet pants a few times since starting school and this has given him a rash. You need to say something.

tethersend I'm not in the NUT so guess that leaves me or do you think I should ask the teacher in the next class if she would mind leaving her 30 pupils to do it?

I agree mrz, we had one child who would go out of her way to hide the fact that she had done a poo. Even when we could smell it and tracked it down to her she would deny it, which left you with the choice of making her come to the loo with you to check (which would really upset her) or leaving her sit in it (obviously not OK).

We frequently ended up phoning her mum. Luckily her mum was OK with this, but that still wasn't really an ideal solution either!

mrz, I am now an advisory teacher for children in care, so know (as you should) that you may not be reporting such an incident in isolation. Your perception that SS would not act is no reason not to report it. I doubt though that that is what you're suggesting?

The answer to cuts is to fight them, not to leave children sat in faeces- which I'm not actually convinced anyone would do.

The responsibility to act can only lie with the teacher if he or she is aware of the situation. Nobody is suggesting random checks.

I would never knowingly leave a child in soiled pants but teachers aren't infallible and it is possible not to notice.

domesticsluttery a few years ago I had a child who would soil himself up to 5 times a day (no medical reason ever identified) and he would tell me the smell was his dad's aftershave his mum refused to come to collect him and he refused to allow us to clean him it was a nightmare and yes SS were contacted and our concern was noted!

mrsz, I am just stating the legislation, not agreeing with it. Joining the NUT might not be such a bad idea, though?

I think as teachers it is part of our job. If there are not enough staff to cover a class whilst a teacher changes one child on the odd occasion they soil themselves (talk of five or six children soiling themselves constantly are hyperbole), or a TA or other member of staff does so, then they are understaffed- which is a separate issue, and one which needs tackling.

tethersend I didn't say I wouldn't report it

Not all schools have TAs as it is we have just 1 TA

I have changed 6 children in one morning who have wet themselves.

OK, soiling is not as common, but by the time you have comforted the child, changed the child, wrapped up the wet clothes, mopped up the puddle... times this by 6 and it takes up a good chunk of the morning session!

and what were the rest of the class doing while you were changing 6 children domesticsluttery? not getting taught ...

I take the point about children not admitting to it

but the OP's son had shit soaked through the back of his trousers and all over his shoes and socks

either the teacher is slovenly/negligent, or she is not very switched on

I'm sure the parents of the children missing out would be just as unhappy if they thought the teacher was unavailable for the length of time it takes to change half a dozen children

sorry posted before I'd finished