WWYD - DS(4) pooed himself TWICE today and came home covered in shit

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

DS has been going for a week of half days and no accidents, though I did tell them he was at nursery. Today was his first full days and as soon as I collected him the smell would have knocked you sideways! I had DS 2 (2) and DS3 (10w) so just went to the car thinking he must have just had an accident, but when I peeled off his trousers he was covered. It was all over his shoes, his socks, on the back of his trousers (you could see it soaked through, like he had sat in a muddy puddle) and once I wiped away the wet stuff, his legs were totally caked in dry poo, it had obviously been there hours. Half a pack of wipes wouldn't even get it off so had to put on his spare jogging bottoms and take him home for a wash (5 min drive). I asked him when he pooed and he said at lunch and when he was running outside. I can understand a missed wee as it can sometimes be harder to spot, but his trousers were soaked in shit and he stank.
They also 'lost' most the parents emergency contact forms (a teacher came out and accused alot of them of not giving them in - which in itself was only spotted after a week! and it transpired they had lost them and found them the next day)
I sent DS back in the pther day to get his indoor shoes and the teacher came back out saying he had to keep one pair there (I said I wanted them home to clean them, but infact I want to keep track of them) and DS blurted out they were lost - £40 and lost within a few days, but have given them the benefit of the doubt that they are just misplaced for a bit - they are very well labelled. They are supposed to have indoor and outdoor shoes, but after the first few days they said they weren't enofrcing it for a while to let them settle in

Last few are just side issues as it seems to be one thing after another at the moment.

WWYD about DS coming home in this state?

I know you didn't mrz; that's why I wanted to check!

I'm not saying that the situation is not a problem- schools should be able to recruit as many staff as they need. I am just saying that the responsibility to ensure that the child is changed lies with the teacher if it has come to their attention during school time. They can do this either by changing the child themselves or by instructing another member of staff to do so. To take no action when they know a child has soiled themselves is negligent.

however many times you repeat it mrz, it's aweak point of argument

I doubt any parent - other than most hardcore of PFB nutters - would think that their child's ten minutes of teaching time superseded the need of a classmate not to be left sitting in his own shit

Greensleeves if you can clean up a child "It was all over his shoes, his socks, on the back of his trousers " in ten minutes I would gladly have you help in my class.

The last accident I had to deal with in reception the child had managed to spread poo from his neck to the bottom of his socks and in the process had smeared it round the walls of the toilet cubical and all round the outside of the toilet (oddly enough there wasn;t any in the toilet) and of course all over the floor before another child came to alert me of the smell ... it took much longer than 10 minutes.
and to cap it all the mum complained because I sent him home in grey trousers!

Bet you never get the trousers back either!

Oh you never ever get the trousers back Feenie
my serial soiler cleaned out our total stock of spare underpants and trousers in just 2 weeks!

I know, our stock is constantly depleted!

OT I used to take all my daughter's outgrown clothes into school and constantly loaned shorts and tops to one child for PE When she brought her holiday pictures in she was wearing my daughter's clothes in each photograph

Apropos of nothing, in my first year of teaching I worked in an SEN school. One day we took the children to a ball pool.

We only found out that a particular child had had an accident when another completely different child popped up from the balls sporting a huge streak of poo across his smiling face.

It was diarrhoea.

I cannot adequately describe the ensuing carnage.

They made us clean every ball. We had to leave someone behind to do it

OMG!

Sometimes they don't admit they've done it - and you ARE left collectively as a group of adults playing a smelivision version of Hot and Cold. Trying to locate the source of the whiff discreetly, without marking out the "OMG SOMEONE'S DONE A NUMBER 2" hysteria that the mention of the word "poo" can evoke in a class of children is actually really surprisingly hard! (Especially if you have a class that can also fart for England as well)

Add in the fact that in Early Years it's not as if you've got them neatly sat round tables so can narrow down the range of possiblities, and lots of them flying around outside on bikes etc where the wind can disperse the worst of the whiff - it's even harder. It's still early in the term so teachers aren't fully aware of who they need to remind more often to go try on the toilet too.

As for some of the stuff that goes on - kids getting caught up in what they're doing, not wanting to stop so just spreading their legs and weeing on the classroom floor and carrying on playing... a child who would smear excrement behind furniture... another who just got tied up in what he was doing so would just go and sit in it until you spotted the whiff... lots and lots of reasons why it goes on and I'm not being judgemental at that point - just ones I've personally come across. You work with littlies - you expect soggy and smelly knickers, but mindreading isn't always possible, half the kids come in from outside with mud on shoes and things and sometimes there's so much going on in a very large EY unit that you don't notice whiffs quickly - especially not if you're working with a group indoors and the child in question is caught up in free play outside.

Send some fresh clothes and carrier bags/nappy sacks/wipes in a bag that you can leave on his peg then at least stuff's on hand if there's an accident again (and it's better than getting the stuff that's left at the bottom of the "accident box" when all the stuff that's actually vaguely the right size has gone absent never to be returned.

It IS an utter nightmare though - I had reception with no afternoon TA, and I lived in dread of an afternoon accident because then you're basically stuck doing the half in the toilet sorting out the soggy undies, head in the classroom craned to supervise the other 29 manouver! Plus my muppet head at the time wouldn't allow us to have a soggy knicker stock in the actual classroom - but kept them in her office so she had control over supplies - at the other side of the flipping school. I gave up and had an illicit stock of stuff hidden in class to make at least that aspect of life easier.

Hold on this mother is WILLING to go in and sort it.... they could have called her if they had big issues!

it is luck rather than judgement that my son hasn't had an accident actually at school because he will not, and never has, poo'd at school / nursery so will hold and hold...

If you look it up the first advice is about constipation - they reckon most poo accidents are caused by underlying constipation as the incontience poo is actually 'overflow' around a harden stool

I'm off to the GP with this one too... good luck!

Mr Z -what procedure does your school have in place for dealing with first aid emergencies whilst you are alone in the classroom?
Our school have 2 baseball caps -a different colour for each class.In the event of a teacher needing urgent assistance in the classroom ,2 children put on teh hats and are sent to reception.Any adult in the school who sees them knows help is needed in that room.A TA from another room the HT or even admin staff can provide a second pair of hands to make sure that the other little darlings aren't causing mayhem

TBH, I don't think it should be a teacher's responsibility at all to deal with accidents. The children should be potty trained before they should go to school. And teachers who have that expectation are perfectly reasonable in my opinion. As a matter of fact, the statutory age of education is 5, i.e. year 1. So the OP can keep a child at home for a year and sort out the problems first. If it is SN, then it's another matter, and she needs to work out with GP, LEA and school how it's going to be dealt with, can the school support it, how, etc. It shouldn't be the reception's teacher responsibility to deal with that.

School not ringing the parent, though, is pretty horrid.

Irisha, I'm not the OP but I am in a similar situation, I think you're being harsh. My son turned 4 on 27 August, he's nearly the youngest in the school. He potty trained late and still has accidents. If we had kept him at home / nursery and started him in year 1:

• all the other kids would have made friends and he would have to break into an established peer group

• he would have had no space for transition, no space to learn school routines and practices before starting the much more formally academic structured year 1

• he can read, type, write, do maths, and use the computer extensively; he was getting bored at nursery and at home

• he would not have got into any of the schools we wanted anyway as they are always oversubscribed with children starting in Reception; given the choices we have locally this might well have had an impact on his entire school career and indeed life.

Under the circumstances it's really not such a straightforward single issue decision as you're suggesting.

Oh come on irisha, it's completely unreasonable to expect parents to keep their children off school for a year to sort out toileting problems. What if it isn't sorted out in a year? What if the parent has to work? Are the children supposed to miss out on school education because of a physical problem? Are they supposed to put their children into a nonexistent special school for children who don't always know that they need to go to the toilet? And do you know how hard it is to get recognition for special needs or educational needs? My son has clear problems and despite my talking to the school as soon as he went into Reception they wanted to 'wait and see how he does' and he has only just been put on School Action plus.

The point is, the school is in loco parentis. If it is known that the child is likely to poo themselves the school should have a system to deal with it. Of course the teacher's job is to teach but it's not the fault of any one child that many teachers are left in charge of 30 kids on their own.

If you left your child with another parent for the day and they pooed themselves, you would expect them at the very least to call you. Hopefully, if you had warned them that it might happen (as the OP had with the school) and left them with spare clothes, they would clean it up themselves rather than calling you over to do it. So why shouldn't we expect the same from a school?

OP if I were in your situation, I would casually mention it to the teacher to find out if she were aware that he had pooed himself. It would be interesting to know if she were aware but unable to help for any reason, or just completely unaware. Neither of these is a good situation, but it might help you to understand their side.

But I would also write a letter to the head, commenting on what happened, not laying the blame at all, but also pointing out that you had warned them he might poo in his pants and you would appreciate knowing what their approach is in cases like his. If they don't reply, or it happens again, I would ask for a meeting either with the form teacher or the SENCO to formally create a care plan. I bet the people on the Special Needs board could help with this if it comes to it.

If you have a medical reason why he's pooing himself, or if you have at least seen the GP it might also help.

Irisha, there are various (common) conditions which make children Faecally incontinent ( I don't use the word 'trained' because it is not a matter of training)
Also any child (or adult) can have an an episode of diarrhoea which catches them by surprise..What if the parents are working 2 hours away, or in the middle of operating on somebody??

There are several issues here, for example, is it a matter of general immaturity/delayed potty training, etc or medical. If the former AND it's a known problem (i.e. not a one-off), yes, I do think that it's the parent's issue to sort it out, not school's. It's up to the parent how they want to deal with it - whether to delay starting school and address the issue first, or, if they want the kid to go to school, be on hand (or have a nanny on hand) to change him frequently. You can't possibly expect a mainstream school to deal with this.

As for some comments on delay in starting school and why one wouldn't want to go straigt into year 1 because kids have formed friendships and know routines, etc. Do you think it's better to be a "new kid on the block" who can cope with all aspects of school and come into year 1 or to be the kid "who has accidents" but start in reception and possibly become a pariah because of the issue by year1?

If it's a medical problem that is not a matter of growing out of it/further confidence/potty training,etc, then obviously it has to be dealt with differently, with medical professionals and the school. There has to be a plant, etc. What you can't expect is to assume it's a problem of the school and they HAVE to find a plan. It's a problem of the parent first and foremost to make sure appropriate provision (whatever that it is) is avaialable for the child.

Oh Irisha, I'm trying not to get drawn into this but what do you think 'delayed potty training' is if not a medical problem? Do you think these parents are just lazy and have never tried to get their children used to using the toilet?

I feel extremely envious of you, who either has no children at all or has children who toilet trained perfectly. Unfortunately it's no surprise - it's the one issue that I find most other parents completely unsympathetic about unless they have experienced it themselves. It's why (on the whole) I try to stick to the SN boards.

If you feel like educating yourself all you have to do is look at the number of threads on here to do with constipation or encopresis. Maybe you will realise it's not such a straightforward situation as you appear to believe.

ASecretLemonadeDrinker, I have just read your post and think it is disgusting that no one was able clean your son. He is a little kid and still needs help. I think that someone should have taken him into the bathroom and washed him, giving him clean clothes (e.g. from PE bag). Some schools have shower rooms but even though if there is not any it should have been sorted out. Leaving a child covered in poo is just so cruel. What if a child has diarrhoea and cannot hold it? What about other children who may come in contact with poo?
I think the staff is just lazy! I would complain to the head teacher and if she/he is rude or reluctant to do anything then I would complain to the LEA or OFSTED.
A child by this age should be toilet-trained but accidents happen. I doubt any child would have been able to clean his bottom, legs without making any mess around. That child would be left shocked for a long time. Some kids can poo if they get scared. With such teachers and PAs even I would want to go to the loo.
I would also recommend not to give dairy products before school, muesli or anything too laxative.

I've been trying to avoid getting drawn into this too! but ....

Irisha, how would a child going into school at year 1 be able to "cope with all aspects of school", compared to peers who have had a whole year of school already? It's about far more than just being 'the new kid'! School is a really complex set of new practices, and part of the idea of Reception is to get children socialised into all of these. Having to learn all this stuff at the same time as starting the more academic curriculum of year 1 would be a lot to ask.

Yes I am not thrilled we are in this situation; yes it is our responsibility to sort it out, in partnership with the school. Yes we have been working on it. But just like talking, walking, and many other things, toilet training is a developmental issue with very wide variation, and actually (according to my health visitor) just-turned-4 is still within the norm for boys to be having toileting accidents, especially poo ones. I would have been much happier if summer-born children could have a January start. But faced with the situation we are in, we make the best decisions we can for our children, taking everything into account.

Of course, I hadn't thought of employing a nanny to be on hand

OnceWasMummyPig,

I do actually have a child and she has many problems of her own, although, admittedly, not potty trainig. And I view these problems as my own (and our family's), rather than the school's and think it is first and foremost my responsibility as a parent to find the most appropriate and comfortable (for my DD) way to deal with them. Not the school's.

I totally sympathize with OP and with that particular situation - the school most definately should have called her.

However, I do have an issue with the expectation that any individual teacher SHOULD do anything about it. A teacher's job at a mainstream state school is to deliver the curriculum appropriate to an AVERAGE child in the classroom (as that's what the curriculum and mainstream provision is supposed to deal with).

Any individual teacher in the much hailed (on this board) role of loco parentis is supposed to be able to deal with emergencies (within school policies). An ongoing toiletting issues is not an emergency and bringing in the in loco parentis arguement into this is not appropriate.

Anything beyond this is the parent's, school's and LEA's responsibility to sort out, whether to have an IEP, whether a TA, a care assistant, a parent on standby,etc. It's most certainly not a job of the class teacher.

With regards to "delayed potty training" debate, I don't think that the parents are lazy, far from it. But sometimes, children develop at different rates (i.e. it's not a physical medical problem) and "crack" potty training later than the average range for teh peer group. If that's the case, yes, I don think it is significantly more beneficial to deal with this problem first before putting the child through recpetion with 30 kids, 1 teacher and a day from 9 to 3pm (on average).

It's like when a kid has speech problems, i.e. mixes up sounds, mispronounces a lot, etc. There is absolutely NO point trying to teach such kid literacy in mainstream, average reception classroom until the speech problem is resolved. It will be totally futile.

Systemsaddict,

You are the parent, it's your choice to decide when your child starts school, it's your right. When you go through that decision, you go through a set of trade offs - getting used to school ASAP in reception vs sorting out the potty training first. You arrived at the conslusion that in spite of potty training issues and problems it may creat for you kid in the first place, it's beneficial to start a later summer born child in reception.

Just don't expect that it's in reception teacher's job description to deal with this as a matter of her day to day job (odd accidents excluding).

And you work full time and are not available to change, and "hadn't thougt of employing a nanny to be on hand", how do you think the school is supposed to deal with it? Hire an additional person to deal with it? Especially, given the fact the education is not even compulsary and LEA not obliged to provide it unitl yr1...

Teachers and PAs???

Wish I had a PA

No, what I had thought was that school, me and ds would work together on a range of strategies to develop the appropriate behaviours as soon as developmentally possible, actually, as we are already doing. Having already discussed it with the teachers before he started.

And there are children in his class with delayed speech too, as in your example; the teachers are working with them too. Reception isn't just (or even) about literacy.