Am I drinking too much?

[fiziwizzle]

I hope this isn't too contentious. I have taken most of the pregnancy advice with a pinch of salt as I reason, I'm not ill, I'm pregnant (re exercising etc) and also, women have been doing this for thousands of years without avoiding soft cheese/pate/shellfish. So I'm eating nuts, soft boiled eggs and pate and I'm also having a few drinks a week.

I know that a glass of wine (175ml) contains 2 units and so does a pint of beer, and I have either a glass of wine or a pint of beer on 3 - 4 occasions per week. This is more than my MW recommended (1 to 2 units, once to twice per week) but I reason, if 2 units are OK on one day, why are they not OK on the next?

My drink is always with a meal, and on the odd occasion I have had two glasses of wine over a long meal (a few hours).

I think (I hope!) that I'm being sensible here, not sticking rigidly to guidelines but using my common sense. I'm 15+3 and this is my first, so I have no past experience to guide me. I just sometimes lie awake and worry that I may be harming the baby - even though, in my view, the advice about abstaining in pregnancy is scaremongering, and the body is designed to protect the baby above all else.

I suppose I'm asking for someone to put my mind at rest.... Or I may be in for a telling off!

Cinnibar - I wouldn't worry.

As you say, up until 10-14 days after conception, the fetus hasn't even begun to implant in your uterus wall, and is living from it's own 'reserves'- not taking anything from your bloodstream.

Relax and congratulations!!

CinnabarRed I truly believe your baby will be fine. I drink quite regularly when not pregnant - 2 or 3 glasses of wine most evenings. It is something I enjoy. Have given up completely now pregnant though

Until I found out I was pregnant I was still drinking. Found out day after missed period so 2 weeks after conception. Like you I was worried, but when I thought about it, I figured that for the first 4 to 5 days the egg would just be implanting, then it is still just a fertilized egg and there is no placenta. I'm confident baby was not affected at that point by my drinking and sure it is the same for you.

Loads of people are drinking before they find out they are pregnant - and smoking/eating brie/salami/pate/rare steak etc... until there is a placenta and a shared blood supply I can't see how the baby could be affected.

(please someone correct me if I'm wrong)

I gave up drinking and the soft cheese etc as it seemed the easiest thing to do rather than faff about working out how many units I could have.
TBH,is alcohol so important to you that you must keep drinking it?
Or is your baby so unimportant that it´s not worth giving up alcohol for?

All these people saying "give up completely, is your baby not worth it?", do any of you own cats or have friends / relatives that have cats that you visit? You can catch toxoplasmosis (FACT) from coming into contact with cats (not just emptying litter trays, you can get it from stroking cats too, if there is faecal matter on their fur). It is of course HIGHLY unlikely that you will catch toxoplasmosis this way, but it is still a PROVEN RISK. People don't come on these threads on MN and say "You're pregnant and you've got a cat? Are YOU MAD? Are you trying to damage your UNBORN BABY?! Just get rid of that cat - find it a new home - it's just not worth the risk - or is your baby not important enough to get rid of all family cats?" A cat is a luxury - you don't need one, we have them because they are nice to have around. It's not like the OP's example of crossing roads being a risk too - we all have to cross roads to live a normal life, but we can survive our pregnancy without having a cat as a pet.
But do we actually come on here telling people to send their cats to Battersea cat's home as soon as we get pregnant? Why is it different? I am genuinely interested to know why people think this is different - not trying to start a fight (although I am getting rather peed off with people?s accusations that the OP is a stupid idiot hell bent on drinking to the point where it could have an effect on the baby ? she is not!)

but if you own a cat and it has toxo, you'll probably have caught it anyway, pregnant or not. plus which, there is treatment for toxo infection, not for alcohol consumption though.

plus nobody is saying the OP is an idiot - just that they would not take the risk - but it's up to her. she asked for opinions, and got them - now it's her (and all of our) choices what we drink/eat/own whilst pregnant.

Bottom line, if you´re scared that you´re harming the baby -change what you´re doing.
If you´re happy, carry on and don´t bother asking others what they think.

One thing that I think this thread demonstrates neatly, is that no one actually knows what the safe limits are, just that lots is dangerous - so that does actually leave some room for discretion, IMHO.

I'm 25 weeks PG for second time - haven't drunk much this time as didn't fancy it, whereas had 1-2 units per week after 12 weeks the last time round as I really missed a glass of wine - not least as there was quite a culture of it at work. So I have a lot of sympathy for people who miss it (as I was one), and think it's quite insulting to suggest that they have some sort of problem, nine months can actually feel a very long time, I remember it well.

And the other point I would make is that it would be helpful if the 'powers that be' offered consistent advice and stopped changing their minds - the advice regarding drinking when PG changed twice when I was PG the first time (in 2007) and I think has changed again since - which does make me rather dubious about its basis. As I recall, it was basically changed to nothing on the grounds that we're all to stupid to interpret it properly (I'm paraphrasing here..) - rather like stopping anyone with an under-2 being able to buy cough medicine as we clearly can't be trusted to read the label properly.

Hmm, you'd never guess I'd been up all night with a 22-month old with a hacking cough, would you!

Think I'll head off and shout at the telly or something now.....

No one said "idiot" but plenty of posts implied it.

Most people don't get tested for toxo if they own a cat, they just think "the risk is small, so I won't worry about it"... the risk is equally as small (smaller even, as there is NO evidence to suggest moderate drinking -- 8 units per week) for drinking alcohol.

You're quite right - the OP asked for opinions and got them - I wasn't saying we can't all have an opinion, but when opinion contravenes the facts (see earlier scientific research into moderate drinking in pregnancy), it's hard not to rise to the bait with posts saying "is your baby so unimportant that it´s not worth giving up alcohol for?"

Anyway - I think I'm going round in circles now so shall leave it there! I hope you have a good pregnancy Fizi - I shall look forward to the birth announcement!

xx

Cinnabar - I did exactly the same when I conceived ds 5 years ago. I had a false negative, implantation bleed which I thought was a period and it was Christmas and I consumed a hell of a lot of alcohol. I was really concerned but GP said not to worry that it was so early it wouldn't cause any damage, she said that it was prolonged drinking that was more dangerous.

Ds is now 5 and he is slightly crazy but other than that he is completely fine.

Personally, I "love" a glass of wine but just couldn't enjoy it now I am pregnant. I agree with the above from LittleMissBliss, listen to what your inner voice is telling you. Is it really worth the risk? Imagine how great that glass of champers will taste when you finally toast the birth!

I did not at any point say that because my DS was fine everyone else's babies will be. I said that NO ONE can predict the outcome of a pregnancy 100% and therefore women should do what they feel is right and not worry about every little thing.
As to all the squealing about pate and cheese, why not have a little think about how many times you've actually caught listeria from eating those things? Would that by any chance be four fifths of fuck all? Again, it's scaremongering over something which is a very small risk (most pate and soft cheese being not actually crawling with listeria) and it's about furthering the assumption that pregnant women are no longer to be allowed to make their minds up about anything but are fair game for silly fingerpointing twats with too much time on their hands and no concept of risk assessment.

I have similar concerns to fiziwizzle.But think Boobz spoke a lot of sense, backed up with strong sound evidence. I understand the concerns of everyone on this link and see that most of you have expressed yourself in a concerned and sensible way. However for those who completely condemn fiziwizzle,I just wonder how many of you are abstaining from all things 'unhealthy' in pregnancy. Are you taking regular physical excercise, watching and regulating the amount of weight you gain etc? I understand that only posting reassuring messages is not sending the right message out, but equally I find it shocking that you can suggest someone has a 'problem' for having a glass of wine a few times a week!
I go to the gym 2 - 3 times a week,drink lots of water, avoid the foods considered unhealthy in pregnancy and live a very healthy life style. I do however (get ready to shoot me down ladies) have a SMALL measured out glass of wine with my meal most evenings. Does that mean I have a problem? I don't think so. I am avoiding all things unhealthy and consider my one treat a day is of no harm to anyone....especially not my baby. (I am expecting my third baby) My pregnancy book suggests the same thing.I do worry about the health of my baby, and would defy any of those who abstain altogether to say that you do not worry about the health of your baby as a result of things you have done.
I think you need to think very carefully before judging someone, especially someone expecting there 1st child.
Just food for thought,

p.s, I have becks blue bottled alcohol free beer...really good and very little difference to the real thing. Helps me feel more sociable when with friends having a few drinks!
Alcohol free wine....YUK YUK!!! [GRIN]

FWIW, though clearly it varies depending on what you read, generally 1-4 units a week is considered light drinking, up to 10, or up to 14 depending what you read is considered moderate, 14+ is heavy & 25+ is hazardous/problematic.

The NCT summary of the evidence about drinking in pregnancy state that light (1-4) is not a problem & moderate(4-10) is unlikely to be a problem (ie it has never been demonstrated to be a problem by any evidence).

I don't think it's fair to say that those people who have done their research and concluded that light/moderate drinking is probably safe are "self-justifying" simply because they have shared their decision making process in response to a question.

I think it's very important to realise that being pregnant doesn;t mean your life is over, you are public property and must immediately renounce everything you enjoy or need to do Just In Case. No matter what you do, most of the time it will make no difference to the outcome of your pregnancy: what happens to a foetus has a lot to do with genetics on both sides, and random combinations of factors: no matter how self-sacrificing and obedient you are (giving up alcohol, fat and sugar for three months before you even start having sex, as some of the more demented woman-as-walking-incubator-and-nothing-else propaganda would have it) you can still have a non-healthy baby or a miscarriage. It's perfectly OK to think that being PG is just a part of life, not The Most Important Thing You Will Ever Do and Far More Important than you are...
ONe more time: there is no evidence of foetal damage caused by light or moderate drinking. Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder is a misogynist myth (labelling perfectly normal variations in development as all the fault of the evil stupid selfish bitches who didn't lock themselves indoors for 9 months). Very heavy drinking on a regular basis isn't good for you let alone being risky for a foetus.

Like others, I didn't find out I was pregnant with my first until around 10 weeks and had been drinking during that time. TBH I still haven't forgiven myself and spend lots of time looking for signs of FASD in him, and comparing him to my other 2 children (who I didn't break any of the 'rules' with). It is not a nice feeling to have about someone you adore, when you know that there was no-one to blame but yourself.

I think that I am probably just paranoid, but isn't it simply better to look back and think, I did everything I could for my baby?

I am not saying don't touch a drop, but perhaps just a glass a week would be enough, and something to look forward to!

I just can´t see why if you´re at all concerned, giving upalcoholfor the pregnancy is such a big deal.
Noone can reassure either way, as no one knows!

Hi

I do think what you are doing is wrong you are not really thinking of your child by carrying on like this I might sound a bit harsh but with DD2 before I found out I was pregnant I had a craving for nuts i stopped when i found out i was pregnant 14 weeks and when she was 3 months old we discovered she had a whole host of allergies and she ended up with severe eczema and ending up having to bandaged because it was weeping so bad she is fine know as she has grown out of it but i felt awful. Then DS wasborn 11 years later again at the beginning before finding out I was pregnant for about 4 weeks had a craving for bottled lager and was drinking 3-4 a night at the time i was under a lot of stress from work so put it down to needing to unwind my DS was born and in March of this year was told he has learning difficulties as well as other problems believe me if I had my chance again I would be sticking to everything they tell you not to do it really IS NOT worth the risk

mummyslittleboy

There is no way you can know that what you did was the cause of either of those things.

Eczema/allergies are so incredibly common & there are many things far more likely to cause them than nuts in pregnancy (are you aware that they are changing the guidelines as it is now deemed that exposure to nuts does not increase the risk?). I seriously doubt your consumption of nuts caused that - he was almost certainly predisposed to allergies anyway, genetically, and even if it was environmental factors there are other things that are far more likely to be the causes.

As for your drinking at that level in the very first few weeks of pregnancy, before you found out - well I have never come across any HP who thinks that there is a danger before you find out given that most people know by 5/5 weeks at the latest - unless you find out particularly late. (Also the OP is not talking about having 3-4 drinks every night but that is not my point.)

Guilt (unfounded) in mothers has a habit of finding something to settle on & all mothers look for things to blame themselves for when their children have problems, or when they mc etc. It is rarely the case though, that the thing that the mother settles on was actually to blame. If you hadn't been drinking/eating nuts in early pregnancy, you would just have found something else you did to blame it on. Have you actually had a HP say that these things were your fault? I'd be astonished (and shocked) if you had.

I am pregnant with my 3rd child and I am a bit slapdash about peanuts, eggs, pate, soft cheese and all that, but I am a bit more strict about alcohol. I will allow myself one or two units once or twice a week if I get past 12 weeks. But at the moment (7+6) I am not drinking at all. As for the OP, well you probably have enough answers by now, but my view is that yes perhaps it is a bit too much. I also really regret having eaten pate the other day as I subsequently had terrible cramps for 24 hours - may be unrelated, but I wish I hadn't taken the chance. Peanuts though I feel are ok. A doctor friend of mine thinks exposure is more likely to protect the baby from a peanut allergy. Also I find peanuts are a good snack to stave off morning sickness.

The more responses to this I read, the more I realise that this is actually not an argument worth of debate. People make decisions about pregnancy based a lot on emotion, rather than hard evidence, and therefore you can't have a rational debate as there are always those people who will resort to emotional argument rather than a scientific one, and you can't reason with emotion most of the time. I have cited evidence (several pieces of robust research) that 4 glasses of wine a week will not harm your foetus. It won't - hundreds of thousands of pregnancies have born this result (if you excuse the pun)... and yet people will still say "you should abstain from alcohol completely, to not do so is selfish". This response does not make any sense to me when it has no scientific basis. So I cannot argue with those people any more - we shall never agree, and nothing I say will ever change your mind. I could present evidence with millions, rather than hundreds of thousands of pregnancies showing that 4 glasses of wine a week will not cause FAS or any symptoms relating to the spectrum, and people will still come on here and say the OP is drinking to much and risking the foetus.

So what's the point?

Boobz - most human decisions are based on emotion not logic, and most of us will do what feels right for us rather than what is strictly scientific. The OP asked for opinions and those opinions are largely formed from emotions. The scientific facts you give I'm sure are even more useful. My feeling is that 4x a week is a bit much, but that's just a feeling not a scientific fact. Should I not be eligible to join in the thread?

Imagine mumsnet with only rational debate allowed

fiziwizzle: I think its unlikely that the amount of alcohol you are drinking will cause a problem. But if it is worrying you I would cut down!! You are probably doing more harm through stress than alcohol.

I had a few glasses of wine a week (after sickness had gone) throughout pregnancy. I realised that a glass of wine is 125ml and that if the wine is 13% alcohol, one glass is 1.6 units. So its very easy to have more than you thought.

Best of Luck.

MustHave - oh don't say that about stress! I've been having a stressful pregnancy and I hate the thought that I'm passing on worried vibes to the baby. Maybe I should hit the booze to chill out a bit

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