Am I drinking too much?

[fiziwizzle]

I hope this isn't too contentious. I have taken most of the pregnancy advice with a pinch of salt as I reason, I'm not ill, I'm pregnant (re exercising etc) and also, women have been doing this for thousands of years without avoiding soft cheese/pate/shellfish. So I'm eating nuts, soft boiled eggs and pate and I'm also having a few drinks a week.

I know that a glass of wine (175ml) contains 2 units and so does a pint of beer, and I have either a glass of wine or a pint of beer on 3 - 4 occasions per week. This is more than my MW recommended (1 to 2 units, once to twice per week) but I reason, if 2 units are OK on one day, why are they not OK on the next?

My drink is always with a meal, and on the odd occasion I have had two glasses of wine over a long meal (a few hours).

I think (I hope!) that I'm being sensible here, not sticking rigidly to guidelines but using my common sense. I'm 15+3 and this is my first, so I have no past experience to guide me. I just sometimes lie awake and worry that I may be harming the baby - even though, in my view, the advice about abstaining in pregnancy is scaremongering, and the body is designed to protect the baby above all else.

I suppose I'm asking for someone to put my mind at rest.... Or I may be in for a telling off!

boobz hi there, your posts are very informative and interesting I just wondered about this one sentence: "What are you basing that on? Because the GP told you, or your midwife?" - because, yes, alot of us will be basing our decisions on information given to us by the health professionals who are supposedly looking after us in pregnancy, and surely theres nothing wrong with that?! I'm not being argumentative, just pondering because its my 1st pregnancy and surely I should be trusting what the doctors and midwives say (albeit with a little reading up on subjects, I agree). I'm not a qualified physician and know absolutely nothing about babies/pregnancy, and presumably these people do...? I hope so anyway

Brighton Of course we should all listen to the "experts" in the field, in-so-much as generally they have up to date information and your best interests at heart. However sometimes the advice given is in-consistent and just plain wrong. I was told by my HV to start weaning at 3.5 months because I had a "hungry" baby, despite what I had read to the contrary from my independent research on exclusive breast feeding and baby's digestive systems. I chose to take her advice with a pinch of salt and carry on EBF my DD regardless, and not introduce solids until she was 6 months.

My GP was very anti-homebirth, despite what the research and statistics say about homebirths being as safe or safer than hospital births for those people with normal pregnancies. I chose to listen to what he had to say, but then changed to a GP more supportive of HBs, and went ahead with my plans to give birth at home.

So in answer to your question "alot of us will be basing our decisions on information given to us by the health professionals who are supposedly looking after us in pregnancy, and surely theres nothing wrong with that?!", I believe that yes we are able to listen to, and in some cases defer to, health care professionals, but why not look into the facts surrounding your pregnancy / birth / child yourself and gather as much info on your own so you can have a debate, if one is needed, with that individual rather than just always accepting what is sometimes their opinion (i.e. all homebirths are dangerous) with fact (homebirths are statistically as safe as hospital births for those with a normal pregnancy).

Gosh I have gone on, haven't I?

babies' not baby's... what is wrong with my spelling today!?

I appear to have killed the thread - sorry about that.

I drank more than the OP when I was PG and my DS is not only fine but advanced for his age. There is almost certainly a genetic component to FAS and that's why some women get away with drinking a litre of gin a day while PG and have a healthy baby at the end of it. It's also likely that the FAS problems are partly caused by the other problems present in heavy drinkers such as poor nutrition, possible homelessness and drug abuse etc.
Please bear in mind that you can spend your entire pregnancy in a state of sweating self-denial, lying awake at night wondering if there's anything in that new research suggesting that looking at a bottle of wine on someone else's restaurant table can harm your foetus, somehow managing to follow even conflicting advice on what you should do, and still have a baby with difficulties. It is not possible to control the outcome of a pregnancy 100%. But do bear in mind that the contemporary squawking hysteria about drinking in pregnancy is 99.9 about misogyny, not health issues. It's about controlling women's behaviour. People who are concerned about the wellbeing of pregnant women and babies would help far more of them if they left off the self-righteous finger-pointing about what individual mothers do and devoted all that energy to campaigning for better-funded maternity services: far more mothers and babies suffer health problems or even die due to short-staffed, underfunded maternity care than from PG women having a couple of pints.

What a fantastic rant SGB! Brilliant! I love a good rant.

I did my research thoroughly too, and basically concluded the same as Boobz. I usually limit myself to twice a week, but on special occasions I have drunk 3 or evem 4 times a week - but never more than 1.5 glasses & usually no more than 1 glass. I know my units properly & don't overfill my glasses.

I chose to be much stricter in the first trimester, not because I felt the evidence demanded that, but because I felt I needed it to feel personally comfortable. You are past that point anyway now so there's no point worrying about that.

There really is no evidence that moderate drinking is harmful, and never has been any. The govt guidelines were openly about social engineering and not about evidence (they publicly admitted the change was not due to evidence, but due to the fact that they didn't think people who binge drink would stick to 1-2 units so it was easier to say none at all). The NICE guidelines (which are much more evidence based) are a daily limit of 1-2 units, after 12 weeks. All the evidence actually points to binge drinking being the hazard - not regular but moderate/light drinking.

As for trusting the opinions of HPs - I am afraid I have experienced far too many examples of HPs just being plain wrong - I would never accept anything that a HP told me at face value without backing it up with my own research or a second opinion. HPs are just normal people doing a job with varying degrees of training/competence - they are very far from infallible. If you want to be sure of anything you simply have to do your reading up & make an informed decision.

Also FFS for centuries everyone drank alcohol all the time. LITERALLY. It wasn't safe to drink the water, so everyone drank ale and mead. OK so it wasn't exactly Special Brew, but it was still alcohol, and if alcohol had been as toxic to foetuses as some of the ullulating bucketheads want to claim, then the human race would be extinct.

SGB - not sure that calling people 'ullulating bucketheads' for not recommending drinking alcohol whilst pregnant is entirely constructive, but never mind.

With regards to FAS having a genetic component - well, yes, this is possible. I have yet to see any conclusive research on it, and so cannot really comment any further on the matter (apart from this paper* in which research was carried out on mice, and which concludes that 'Thus, during development, a single exposure to alcohol can injure a genetically vulnerable brain, while it leaves a wild type brain unaffected. Since the genes that confer alcohol resistance and vulnerability in developing humans are unknown, any particular human fetus is potentially vulnerable. Thus, women should be counseled to consume no alcohol during pregnancy.'). However, telling the OP that 'I drank more than the OP when I was PG and my DS is not only fine but advanced for his age.' is not scientific evidence, is it? It's like homeopathy - it does help some people, but that doesn't mean it actually works in any real medical sense, does it? it's right up there with voodoo, witchcraft and faith-healing. (And before anyone jumps in with "well, it worked for me", so do witchcraft and faith healing). Anecdotal evidence is totally useless, as what works for one person may work for another, but equally it may not. That is why scientists usually tend to test hypotheses rigorously before unleashing their ideas on the general public (I say usually, as the MMR research proved that this is not always the case).

Anyway, what I'm saying is - there is not enough evidence one way or the other to convince me that moderate to heavy drinking whilst pregnant is safe for my baby, so I will try and abstain. The OP merely asked for people's opinions so that she could justify her own drinking - fine, if she wants to, but that does not mean that those of us who chose not to drink after doing our own research are in the wrong. It's like those who chose to smoke, or take illegal drugs - do what you want to your own body, but don't criticize me for deciding not to smoke, it's my body, I can do what the hell I want with it. Now it's not just about my body, it's about my baby too - so to keep my mind at rest, I'm not drinking, and am eating a far healthier diet than I used to. My decision alone.

*in case the link doesn't work, it's de Licona et al, 2009, Neurotoxicology

SGB - Do you have any scientific evidence to back up your rants?

I don't think comparing alcohol levels to past times when alcohol was safer than water is a valid as infant mortality rates where sky high in those days so it hardly proves your point that alcohol is safe!

arolf who is talkign about heavy drinking here?
i would not say the OP is a heavy drinker.
i would have to say i know many women including myself who were getting pissed at the weekends not knowing they were pregnant and had normal healthy babies.
i have the occasional glass of wine with a meal like many people and i am pregnant. i think there is a difference as to what type of alcohol you drink too.
rather the OP drinking a glass of wine than a voddy and coke (how i miss a voddy and coke!!)

Message withdrawn

bethoo - to me 8-10 units a week (what the OP drinks) is quite a lot - but I've always been a lightweight, so more than 2 units (small glass of wine) at a time is enough to make me tipsy. I'm not tee-total, but I can live without alcohol - so to me, 8 units a week would be classed as moderate to heavy drinking. I cannot find what the guidelines say is moderate drinking, if they even classify it as such. I was only talking about my perspective though, hence emphasising the 'me' and 'I' in the paragraph. I'm also of the mind that I will not be letting my child drink alcohol in any appreciable amounts until he is quite a lot older - an occasional sip of wine or beer here and there maybe, but nothing more until he's significantly older (i.e. in his teens) - so why let him drink now, before he's even born? But like I say, my opinion, my body, my baby. It's up to each of us to do what we feel is best for our children, and this is one thing I feel quite strongly about with regard to my child.

Also, I'm not sure that the type of alcohol does make such a difference - it's the quantities that are the problem.

Thanks to all for their input. I think that what I was trying to articulate in my original post, and maybe didn't too clearly, was that I think the MW's advice of 1-2 units once or twice a week is arbitrary, when you consider that the liver metabolises alcohol at a rate of approx one unit per hour and therefore a small glass of wine is metabolised in roughly two hours. There can be no cumulative effect of this drink in the body; the alcohol is metabolised and elimiated from the body. So, what I was trying to point out, was that I can't see why it is OK to have a small glass of wine on two evenings per week - if that is unlikely to harm the baby, due to most of the alcohol being processed by the liver rather than passed through the placenta - but not on more than two evenings per week.

I don't have a drinking problem (!) and I dont' think that having a small glass of wine with a meal on say three occasions per week can be construed as such. I just find the advice arbitrary and I was reaching out to see if others have come to the same conclusion. Some have, a lot haven't!

I know that the only safe limit is none but I am trying to use a common sense approach and I am still crossing roads, breathing London pollution, etc. There is no way to eliminate risk entirely.

However I was quite shocked at the volume of initial responses, and it's given me food for thought. I'm pondering, and in the meantime I had half a shandy last night instead of a pint of beer

I meant the only known absolutely safe limit in my post above.

And I have never drunk 10 units in a week since being pregnant. Perhaps once I have had 8 units.

Yor baby will be fine fiziwizzle. I drank much the same as you throughout my pregnancies (and on occasions more)- it is nowhere near the level that is at risk of causing fetal alcohol syndrome.

oh, and I also continued to eat rare steaks, shellfish, brie etc

sorry fiziwizzle - maths is not my strong point - I read that you have a glass of wine 3-4 times a week and sometimes 2 glasses an evening, and leapt to conclusions I apologise!

good luck with the rest of your pregnancy, hope it all goes well!

I cut down on alcohol when pregnant, or drank wine spritzers. Very refreshing in warm weather anyway.

Fizi
I would be more worried about your eating soft cheeses and patê, soft boiled eggs and the like.

The alcohol in pregnancy debate is different as it has not been proven one way or another that it is dangerous for your unborn baby.

We know however how dangerous listeria and salmonella can be when pregnant.

The comparison with women doing this for thousands of years is just plain silly. Medical science has moved on, we are more aware of the dangers and these are easy things to avoid.

DS had salmonella when he was a baby and it was very very unpleasant for him. You really really do not want to go through this.

I think the OP sounds sensible enough, and is unlikely to drink to the point where it could harm the baby (binge drinking in any one session; more than 14 units in one week, every week for 40 weeks etc) and that we can ALL agree that getting full blown pissed when pregnant is not a good idea (not only for the fact you're more likely to fall down and damage the foetus by rupturing your placenta!)

I whole-heartedly agree with Arolf in that anecdotal evidence has no place in these kinds of debates... "My baby was alright so you'll be fine" is just rubbish. A sample size of 1 (or even 2, 3 4..) is not helpful and can be misleading and / or dangerous).

And I also agree with MmeLindt in that the debate on alcohol guidelines vs. food is a different one, purely because we know that pate / cheese / shellfish can cause damage to the unborn baby, whereas we don't have the same evidence for alcohol. The risks are very small, and so again it's matter of how risk-averse you are during pregnancy, and then you have to make the right decision for you.

OP, I would say one thing though (and you may or may not care...) when you are heavily pregnant and it's obvious to everyone that you're pregnant, having the odd glass of wine in a restaurant or bar does get you some scathing looks - I was on the receiving end of them!

to those posters saying that the op's bub will be absolutely fine....oh really? do you have a crystal ball that looks into the future and tells all? in which case, please cat me the euro millions numbers for tonight.

joking aside...no one can ever say whether a baby will be fine once born. . that is a totally false reassurance.

what his ultimately comes down to is making your decision (whatever it may be) and being able to live with the outcome. i personally would hate to be in the situation where somehing was wrong with my bub and i had cause to wonder whether something i had done had contributed to it. so i choose to abstain from alcohol completely.

each to their own.

Would appreciate everyone's thoughts on this (apologies for the hijack although it is a related question).

I am pregnant. I went on holiday with DP and the in-laws at, as it turns out, 1 week after conception (that is, 3 weeks pregnant by the standard weeks post menstrual period measurement). Obviously I couldn't have evne known I was pregnant at that point.

Anyhow, I got drunk every single night of the holiday (probably between half and a whole bottle of wine each night). I never usually drink that much, but for that one week I was effectively binge-drinking . Would never have done it if I'd known I was pregnant.

I'm now not drinking at all, and have no problems with that.

Will I have done any harm to my baby? Nothing I can do about it now, of course, but I'm so worried (will feel better, I think, if my 12 week scan is normal, but that's not due for another 5 weeks). I did some research into feotal development at the 3-4 week stage and I'm taking some comfort from the fact that the baby's placenta and umbilical cord would not have developed yet and so s/he won't have been directly linked up to my bloodstream. What do you think?

Fiziwizzle isn't this just really simple for you? If you care about the health of your unborn baby (as you clearly do) then give up the booze for the duration of the pregnancy. Disregarding all the self-justifying posts of others who drank during pregnancy, the only thing we know for sure is that not drinking during pregnancy will eliminate all alcohol-related risks for the unborn baby (pretty obvious, yes?). FFS, if you care about your baby, this is not a difficult thing to do. And this is coming from someone who - when not pregnant/bfeeding - drinks at least half bottle wine per night, every night, with relish and glee (and doesn't trust teetotallers).

I think you should stop worrying about it - worrying will only make you stressed and pregnancy is stressful enough!

Congratulations by the way!

Was that last post to me, Boobz?

Do you own a cat, Philosophy cat? Or just a nice nickname? Just curious...