Abortion & the wave of light.

[Sheisfee]

I'm curious to know if abortion is considered within the wave of light as it is for all baby loss? I know of a few people who grieve their abortions but I'm wondering if there is a space for them when we are remembering babies that have left us too soon? What are your thoughts?
❤️

@Blxo94 please don't call me love.

Whilst I understand you have had a variety of losses and I'm so sorry for that, you do seem to be couching your empathy in terms that reinforces a hierarchy of grief (akin to 'please don't upset those women who have virtuous grief as opposed to the other kind') and the notion that it's ok to grieve as long as it's done in secret is exactly the attitude that reinforces a sense of shame. Nobody should be ashamed of grieving for their child. That you say the wave of light is meant for women who have had losses 'through no fault of their own' is very telling language, and I wonder if you are actually as compassionate as you think you are.
There is a problem of exclusion and shame within the baby loss community, and these attitudes just reinforce that I'm afraid.
I don't want to pick on you or start a fight. I'm just highlighting that these attitudes can be very difficult for women who have a complicated kind of grief, who often already struggle with inner conflict and accessing the support they need.

Also if you have had a tfmr and think terminations for "social" reasons shouldn't be included because those women had a choice ..bear in mind that many pro life supporters believe that women who have tfmrs also have a choice and shouldn't have exercised their right to a termination

I lost two pregnancies to miscarriages, and one to TFMR. They were all planned. For me, personally, I know which one hurts the most, and it is the one in which I had to end my own baby’s life. There is absolutely no comparison, due to all the guilt involved in doing something so contra the love I felt for my baby.

All these losses happened to me, but the TFMR is by some classed as somehow voluntary. I find that incredibly insensitive. I was an exemplary pregnant woman: no caffeine, no cosmetics, no booze ever, etc. I was happily pregnant, on my way to the 20 wk scan, thinking we would see baby and find out the sex, and things did not end up that way.

I also find it insensitive to suggest that women who feel forced for non-medical reasons to end a pregnancy should not be part of the fold. It lacks empathy. I will be thinking of them and their babies, too.

Finally, for women like me, who have not had a successful pregnancy yet, this day is all we have to have our pain acknowledged, as well as our status as mothers.

Maybe we are conflating general grieving for lost babies, which is fine in any situation 😘, of course it is, when the specific question was around the wave of light event which is a big, public event part of baby loss awareness week - baby loss awareness week was originally set up for babies lost via miscarriage, stillbirth, neonatal death and a big part of it is raising money to lobby for a change in government policy and more medical research into why these events occur, and to stop the taboo around miscarriage specifically which is still hard for many to talk about. 🤷‍♀️ I found this when going through my miscarriage.

@HarryPotterFan21

No as someone whose had ten miscarriages late and early, abortion is not appropriate for the wave of light unless it was for a medical reason and had no choice. Why bring people who didn't want their babies into the wave of light? don't tarnish our babies memories with abortion please!

Shame on you.

I feel this is a bit of an academic discussion.

I had a termination because the absolute reality was that the damage it would have done to my existing children, the threat to my health (quite literally I barely made it out of DS2 birth and more importantly he very nearly didn't either ) meant it would have been irresponsible of me to continue with the pregnancy. I do grieve that loss. I do believe there shouldn't be gatekeeping , it isn't as simple as people see it.

All that said , the reality is I don't want to upset mums who lost their DC due to miscarriage or medical concerns. Honestly I have internalised the concept that my grief is worth less than theirs . I do believe, rightly or wrongly, many women in my position feel similar, certainly those who have discussed it do. I don't blame those other mothers but I do think there is unintentional judgement.

Which I get to a point. I have two DC for which I am unutterably grateful because they so newarly weren't here. And yes I made the decision to terminate the third. So in all honesty whilst I cerebrally feel I should be allowed to grieve publicly. I won't and don't.

The internalised concept that there is a hierarchy and the implication that we don't deserve to grieve is embedded in heavily in most. As shown by the instinctive first couple of responses (I know they were not meant to say that or to be unpleasant at all).

So the reality is no , I think it should be separate because I think many people like me would not wish to upset the other mothers, and nor would I wish to face any judgement. I do grieve heavily at the same time as standing by my decision. So maybe an alternate recognition that termination still comes with a grieving process separate so ot doesn't detract from this.

@goinggently

I meant that if she put it on social media she could be met with judgement and outrage from mothers who don't understand the effects having an abortion can have on someone. It wasn't to say "oh you will upset the loss community so don't do it. I said they may feel upset resulting in hate being thrown at her which nobody deserves at all. I never once said she should be ashamed of her grief and infact I said if this helps her to go for it! Your trying to insinuate I'm against a woman for grieving a abortion which isn't the case at all! Don't try tell me what I'm saying. I know what I meant! I've stated in previous comments that she has a right to grieve and participate! This was always going to be a controversial conversation. I see both sides as someone who has experienced BOTH sides and I'm not sorry for having empathy for those who feel grief for terminating a pregnancy and for those who lost their babies unexpectedly who may feel negative towards this (NOT ME AS I SUPPORT HER GRIEVING HER BABY HOWEVER SHE WANTS BEFORE YOU PICK APART MY COMMENT) And for understanding people's feelings and opinions on it. Everyone is going to feel differently on the matter and everyone's feelings are valid. Regardless if you agree or not!

So the reality is no , I think it should be separate because I think many people like me would not wish to upset the other mothers, and nor would I wish to face any judgement. I do grieve heavily at the same time as standing by my decision. So maybe an alternate recognition that termination still comes with a grieving process separate so ot doesn't detract from this.

Do you think women who have had abortions are likely to want to put a candle in their window?

I’m really not sure how anyone would know why a particular woman has chosen to join in the wave of light.

@Comedycook

Also if you have had a tfmr and think terminations for "social" reasons shouldn't be included because those women had a choice ..bear in mind that many pro life supporters believe that women who have tfmrs also have a choice and shouldn't have exercised their right to a termination

That is a very valid point.

I had an abortion, which I still grieve for decades later. I wanted that baby more than anything in the world, I put off the abortion for as long as I reasonably could (until 11 weeks) hoping I could find a way through but I was 17 and it felt impossible. Yes, I had a choice but it certainly didn't feel like it at the time.

Miscarriage is truly awful and heartbreaking, but consider really really wanting the baby you are pregnant with and having to make the decision to end that yourself. It's more than grief.

I refuse to let anyone tell me that my grief is lesser than someone who had a miscarriage - at the end of the day, we're both without a much loved and wanted baby, whatever the circumstance.

@HarryPotterFan21

No as someone whose had ten miscarriages late and early, abortion is not appropriate for the wave of light unless it was for a medical reason and had no choice. Why bring people who didn't want their babies into the wave of light? don't tarnish our babies memories with abortion please!

This perfectly explains why I would not publicly grieve (outside of the specific question on this thread). I understand why this poster feels so strongly but this happens.....its one thing to say termination should be excluded but to see it as tarnishing your experience makes me sick. I will step away from this thread after this post but here you have it. This is a line.

I understand not wanting to be included , that's fine , I understand the grief (I've had loss separately to the point I'm making I've had a longish life and had different experiencesat different times) but to accuse our choices of being some sort of infection that tarnishes others, to see a brutal distressing choice as something that could harm other people's babies memories is simply cruel. I'm truly sorry for your loss, this doesn't give you the right to degrade our experiences. It doesn't give you the right to use that wording.

So many people will which is why this is moot. Those if us who don't want to be told our choices infect and tarnish other people's experience , to add to the grief and guilt and distress. We are not going to do it. We are told we are evil and unclean as it is. No need to open up to that again.

@PurpleDaisies

So the reality is no , I think it should be separate because I think many people like me would not wish to upset the other mothers, and nor would I wish to face any judgement. I do grieve heavily at the same time as standing by my decision. So maybe an alternate recognition that termination still comes with a grieving process separate so ot doesn't detract from this.

Do you think women who have had abortions are likely to want to put a candle in their window?

I’m really not sure how anyone would know why a particular woman has chosen to join in the wave of light.

Thats a fair point. I hadn't really considered that as I was more thinking of not invalidating grief either way. But your right I probably wouldn't either as not everyone knows about mine.

Of course. Genuinely I believe that every mother when they terminate a pregnancy has the babies best interests at heart including - maybe especially - if the baby isn't wanted. Takes guts not to bring an unwanted child into the world.

Oh and I've had 4 miscarriages btw.

What about those ladies who have medical abortions or abortions after rape, of course they can be included.

Of course. I will light a candle for my own baby tonight, lost to miscarriage at 12 weeks. And I will also light a candle for all the other babies, no matter how they left the world, and all the other women who wish their babies to be remembered. xx

I grieve mine. I wanted the baby desperately and I was forced/blackmailed to terminate
I was diagnosed with antenatal depression, self harmed and repeatedly wanted to die afterwards. I had pregnancy grief counselling for 8 months and a crisis team plus the chemist dispensing my meds daily as I was high risk
Damn right I grieve

@HarryPotterFan21

No as someone whose had ten miscarriages late and early, abortion is not appropriate for the wave of light unless it was for a medical reason and had no choice. Why bring people who didn't want their babies into the wave of light? don't tarnish our babies memories with abortion please!

@HarryPotterFan21 this is very hurtful. I loved my son every bit as much as my other children. Do you honestly think it would have been right to birth him only for him to die within moments, in pain, of suffocation because his organs couldn't support him outside of my body?

I had to make that horrific decision, and live with it all these years. Grieving for my beloved son, and also carry all of the guilt that I had to make that decision.

And my grief for him is somehow TARNISHING your grief?

A miscarriage would have been a blessing for me in comparison. I've experienced that also and whilst very sad it was earlier and less traumatic.

I'm sorry for your loss, but you need to brush up on your empathy skills

My babies memory isn't tarnished by anything unrelated to him. How another woman's pregnancy ends has absolutely no impact on what happened to me and him.

Pregnancy loss is extremely personal. I ve has several first trimester losses and a second trimester loss. I dont grieve my first trimester losses in the same way other women do. For me they were the potential of having another child.

My second trimester loss of my son is completely and utterly different. I felt him move and had to give birth to him hold him and chose a coffin for him. My grief is incomparable to my first trimester losses.

I dont expect to be told how I feel is wrong just because other women feel a deep sense of loss and grief about a loss at a different stage of their pregnancy.

For me the wave of light is a moment to acknowledge and remember how we wish things could be different and the children lost could be here with us. How they were lost doesn't come into for me.

Life and pregnancy is complicated.

This has turned into something it should not have. Can we not just support each other, no one's grief is more valid than another. I have had a miscarriage and a termination ( this broke me and 11 years later still does). Please be kind.

I had 2 lovely children under 5. My PND and subsequent mental health was so bad my psychiatric support reviewed me for sectioning. I requested and was given a sterilisation at 28. It failed. I faced the choice of having a much loved other child and take the risk of my children losing their mother to another downward spiral. I felt there was no choice and had an abortion. I know it was the right decision, but I grieve for the baby. Is my loss deemed to be less valid than others?

@FlamingPinkflamingo

I had 2 lovely children under 5. My PND and subsequent mental health was so bad my psychiatric support reviewed me for sectioning. I requested and was given a sterilisation at 28. It failed. I faced the choice of having a much loved other child and take the risk of my children losing their mother to another downward spiral. I felt there was no choice and had an abortion. I know it was the right decision, but I grieve for the baby. Is my loss deemed to be less valid than others?

Sorry for your loss @FlamingPinkflamingo

@GoldenBlue

Thank-you for your kindness. It was a number of years ago but the grief is still there and youre the first person to ever say that to me.

My heart went out to you reading that you had to endure such an horrendous situation with your little boy but the way you have turned it into a way to support and help others is so admirable.

Sending you love x

Its actually ridiculous that some loss is seen as more worthy than others.

Two of my dc have died, I donated the organs of one, and their death is seen as more 'worthy'.

There was a case in the press a few years ago where parents were fighting for their son to have all sorts of intervention etc and they gained quite a following, and when sharing the story of my other child I was told that I didn't love my baby as much as these parents love their son or I would have fought harder and my childs death was my choice, one even said her 'loss' of this child she had never met was worse than mine because I never fought like she did.

I also miscarried twins and was told it wasn't as bad as my children dying at least I didn't get that far.

I was also told after the death of my child by someone who had suffered infertility that my pain wasn't as bad as hers because at least I had felt that love for a couple of weeks and she would never feel that.

There is no scale for those of us who lose their child in whatever way, we feel what we feel and nobody has the right to judge or compare our losses whether they feel its a choice or not.

It doesn't make me feel better to think "well x y or z didn't happen to you, so I'm allowed to feel worse than you do" and I certainly never think that my pain is worse than someone else's.

We are all on this path because of circumstances we didn't want to be in. We should be united, not trying to outdo each other.

@HarryPotterFan21

No as someone whose had ten miscarriages late and early, abortion is not appropriate for the wave of light unless it was for a medical reason and had no choice. Why bring people who didn't want their babies into the wave of light? don't tarnish our babies memories with abortion please!

Sorry for your losses, stay strong. 💐🕯

@JumperooSue

Of course it’s appropriate there’s no rules, women have abortions for so many reasons, just because they couldn’t continue with the pregnancy at that point, they will always hold that with them and if they want to light a candle then they absolutely can! Horrified that people think othwise.

I fully agree with this reply.