Is listeria really that dangerous?

[Pongo101]

I'm pregnant and now things have opened up again I'm receiving ALL the opinions about all the things pregnant women can/cannot eat and do in general.

I already have a strict diet due to GD so I am trying to broaden my horizons on diet so I'm still able to enjoy food.

I looked into some stats. In the UK in 2018, there were just 156 cases of listeria and 32 deaths. In comparison, same year there were 160597 people injured in car accidents and 1784 car accident deaths.

Nobody even considers that getting in your car every day poses a risk to you and your unborn baby but eat a bit of Brie and you are the most selfish mother ever. Even though listeria can also be found on unwashed fruits and vegetables yet if you order a salad in a restaurant nobody blinks an eye - you likely have no idea about the kitchen standards and whether it was really washed properly though.

Are the risks blown out of proportion? I currently can't eat much bread, potatoes, rice, wraps, most junk food (likely a good thing), a glass of milk, you get the picture because they spike my sugar levels. But I could eat a nice slab of Brie with some cherry tomatoes and sugars would be fine and I would be so happy.

Last pregnancy I went in the sauna and jacuzzi every evening after my swim, right up until I popped. I got so many dirty looks but it felt so good I just didn't care in the end and my doctor said it's ok just stop if you don't feel well and listen to your body.

I just wish there was real information about the danger so you could weigh it up properly and make a decision rather than everyone saying "don't do it". I know it's just 9 months but GD makes it a very long 9 months and nobody would say for example, im going to avoid cars for 9 months.

Obviously if someone can get back to me with more reliable info than me just comparing stats of things that are dangerous I won't eat the cheese but so far I'm just thinking Meh there are so many things we could die from, I could catch Covid tomorrow or be hit by a bus.

To be honest it’s not something I get wound up over.

I’m 32 weeks and I got a Mr Whippy by the sea the other day and a complete stranger stopped me and asked if I was aware that I could probably catch listeria from that.

The jacuzzi thing is more about your own blood pressure and if you faint I think 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’ve been in them, I am capable of assessing my own risks.

Oh yes @SmidgenofaPigeon I forgot about mr whippy as just another example. Same as a McFlurry. I couldnt eat either of those due to sugar but i agree, how many people eat a soft ice cream in summer and live to tell the tale.

It's just not on to go up to a stranger in the street and lecture them about what they are eating. You wouldn't do it to anybody else but pregnant women are fair game apparently.

And it truly was lovely going for my evening jacuzzi session. I felt so relaxed and all the aches and pains would just wash away. I can't just sneak off to the pool anymore though. First Covid but also i have my dd 1 to care for and zero free time for such luxuries I'm afraid.

@Pongo101 he’s mad isn’t it? My answer was ‘but I probably won’t’ and the woman says ‘but why take the risk?’ I said well I fancied a Mr Whippy 😂

*it’s mad isn’t it. I hate it that pregnant women are so infantilised.

Bottom line is it could harm your developing baby. Yes the risk is small. But if it did - would you forgive yourself?

@Savoretti but would you feel the same if you were in a car accident? Would you be like "why oh why did I take the risk?"

Do you also cut out using deodorant and all products with certain chemicals in too?

To be honest given the NHS guidance is informed (and amended) by 'real information' as you call it, AKA academic research, I'll stick with that. I think most people go a little off piste on something, especially with subsequent babies (my caffeine intake is closer to that suggested in Expecting Better, but it's not UK data) but you can't use a lack of 'real information' to justify doing so when the official NHS guidance is literally that, possibly with a small time lag for updating based in any new research.

Your immune system is lowered when pregnant, so you are more susceptible to illnesses and diseases than you normally would be. Guidance from country to country also differs, and ultimately, each to their own, but I followed everything I could about food.

My cousin contracted listeria at 28weeks. She had no idea where she contracted it, and thought she followed the food rules 'most of the time'. She ended up in ITU for over a week and lost the baby. She then had months of physio because it had affected her so much. Yes its rare, but it is around.

It’s not completely true actually about your immune system being lowered when pregnant- bit of a myth. It actually changes but not in a way that suddenly makes us weaker and more susceptible to all illness. Certain parts are enhanced while others are suppressed but it’s now thought that this creates a balance to protect both the health of the mum and the unborn baby.

As I understand it listeriosis is very dangerous but is also very rare. So it’s very unlikely that you’d contract it but if you did then the risk of a negative outcome would be quite high.

I don’t know if it’s really rare because pregnant women (one of the most vulnerable populations) are told to avoid high-risk foods. (That’s another thing - listeria can grow in loads of things and it’s present in soil - we’re only told to avoid the ‘highest risk’ foods).

I personally wouldn’t - not because I think the risk of listeria is high but because I’m an anxious person and it wouldn’t be worth the anxiety I’d experience afterwards.

But I think women are capable of making up their own minds.

I also think it's worth considering how you would feel if your baby was born with a disability or an illness that wasn't picked up during pregnancy - I know I would massively struggle with that, especially if there were choices I had made that could have potentially been the cause for such problems.

I know someone who got listeria, and she went into premature labour and her baby died. It is rare but could have devastating consequences. I dont have the statistics though but presumably it is rare partly because we've had the advice for so long. Could you not buy some nice pasteurized cheese like port salut? That might hit the soft creamy cheese spot but no listeria risk.

Cooked Brie and Camembert fine anyway (totally going to have a baked Camembert for dinner)

I agree OP. It's all about weighing up the risks and choosing what is right for you and the baby. I am as likely to harm my baby by crossing the road or getting on a flight as I am by eating a piece of salami or whatever. I can't stand people who give me their unsolicited opinion and usually politely tell them to mind their own business.

I really rate the book Expecting Better. It's written by an economist who started examining health data when she became pregnant. It gives an evidence-based, impartial view of stuff like this.

There are probably more cases than are reported.

I've had food poisoning from soft cheese, it was bloody awful and likely listeria.

Did I go to my GP and get it tested? No, I just sat at home on the loo feeling sorry for myself. But it probably was listeria.

But if I'd been pregnant it could have been a disaster.

If a bit of cheese and wine was that bad, there would be no French babies.

Listeria can affect the baby and not you if that makes sense. I know someone whose full term baby died in utero from Listeria. Personally don’t think it’s a risk worth taking. It’s a few months and then you can eat what you like.

Getting in a car is not the same OP as following that logic you wouldn't be able to leave the house. You would also be at risk as a pedestrian or on public transport. That would be more extreme and disproportionate than simply avoiding a limited list of foods. The nhs guidance isn't massively restrictive and I think it's selfish if you can put your child over a craving for some soft cheese or a hot tub.

I have avoided our hot tub, felt it was easier to go without but im a vegetarian so like you my choices are already limited and I couldn’t miss out on the amazing goats cheese from my favourite restaurant for 9 months. I did at first I think until 12 weeks then I watched/read a lot and realised it was most likely fine as long as it was well cooked right through to kill any bacteria. I just asked every time I went for it to be made extremely hot and they would just about melt it onto the plate but I didn’t care since I was getting to eat it 🙈

I make a decision to eat soft cheese for the same reason as you, that the risks are extremely low. I didn’t eat things that had high vit A. NHS is hugely paternalistic about healthcare in pregnancy and operates on the basis that it’s best not to tell you the actual risks and research because you can’t be trusted to make your own decisions.

But @sarah13xx that's adhering to the NHS guidance that you can eat that cheese if it's cooked, not quite the same as ignoring the information and choosing to have a sauna just because.

Well as you point out, case fatality is 20% even for non pregnant people. I personally felt that if I'd been risking death all this time by eating Brie, I might as well risk miscarriage as well!

@8dpwoah yeah I just wouldn’t eat it cold or from anywhere a bit ‘dodgy’. I didn’t have a sauna or hot tub, felt it was too big of a risk

Thanks everyone for the replies. I take on board some of the experiences of people losing their babies due to listeria.

Think using words like selfish are a bit Ott since I am just questioning the information. In what world are we selfish just for a bit of critical thinking? Or should we just blindly believe everything we see on the NHS website.

I get it, we should pay attention to listeria.

But it also says on the website that you can get listeria by eating food prepared from others and from unwashed fruit and veg.

So are you selfish for getting a takeaway when pregnant? Eating a restaurant salad? Eating an apple on a picnic? Just read that supermarket hummus can have listeria. In the NHs website it does not tell you that an unwashed apple is less dangerous than a soft cheese. There are no numbers on how dangerous Brie is vs. unwashed fruit on that site. So would you approach a woman eating in the street and ask "have you washed that apple. You know it could have listeria on it?"

Re. The car comment, only 456 pedestrians were killed in 2018 (sticking with that year because all the figures are available) which is far less than car accident deaths that year. So we could dramatically reduce the risk of death by avoiding the car, but we don't judge pregnant women for traveling by car.

We don't question them for eating a shop bought salad. The focus is just on cheese and ice cream.

I can live without the cheese of course. It's the skewed advice, risk assessment, and data that is frustrating. It's like we can just ban stuff for women and expect them to go along without providing the full facts and detail. The information provided is so wishy washy it bugs me that we're treated like beings incapable of digesting info.

I will check out the recommended book by the pregnant economist though. It sounds like it's right up my street!!