Is listeria really that dangerous?

[Pongo101]

I'm pregnant and now things have opened up again I'm receiving ALL the opinions about all the things pregnant women can/cannot eat and do in general.

I already have a strict diet due to GD so I am trying to broaden my horizons on diet so I'm still able to enjoy food.

I looked into some stats. In the UK in 2018, there were just 156 cases of listeria and 32 deaths. In comparison, same year there were 160597 people injured in car accidents and 1784 car accident deaths.

Nobody even considers that getting in your car every day poses a risk to you and your unborn baby but eat a bit of Brie and you are the most selfish mother ever. Even though listeria can also be found on unwashed fruits and vegetables yet if you order a salad in a restaurant nobody blinks an eye - you likely have no idea about the kitchen standards and whether it was really washed properly though.

Are the risks blown out of proportion? I currently can't eat much bread, potatoes, rice, wraps, most junk food (likely a good thing), a glass of milk, you get the picture because they spike my sugar levels. But I could eat a nice slab of Brie with some cherry tomatoes and sugars would be fine and I would be so happy.

Last pregnancy I went in the sauna and jacuzzi every evening after my swim, right up until I popped. I got so many dirty looks but it felt so good I just didn't care in the end and my doctor said it's ok just stop if you don't feel well and listen to your body.

I just wish there was real information about the danger so you could weigh it up properly and make a decision rather than everyone saying "don't do it". I know it's just 9 months but GD makes it a very long 9 months and nobody would say for example, im going to avoid cars for 9 months.

Obviously if someone can get back to me with more reliable info than me just comparing stats of things that are dangerous I won't eat the cheese but so far I'm just thinking Meh there are so many things we could die from, I could catch Covid tomorrow or be hit by a bus.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

That’s a paper from a study conducted in New Zealand, perhaps you’d be able to better back up your point with the equivalent from the U.K., with women who consumed U.K. or European food products?

Science is international. This works everywhere. The point is the listeria was transmitted to a child in 96% of cases. Read the paper. That will happen everywhere regardless of food production.

@Loki01 no, it’s not completely universal in this case at all actually as you’ll find different countries have vastly different food standards and therefore different rates of listeria infections.

[quote SmidgenofaPigeon]@Loki01 no, it’s not completely universal in this case at all actually as you’ll find different countries have vastly different food standards and therefore different rates of listeria infections.[/quote]
You are missing my point.
I am reffering to the fact that in that study, listeria passed to a child in 96% of cases. I am not discussing food standards.
Read that study.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

I dont have doctorate in food production. I do have one in microbiology/virology.

No, YOU have missed the point. OP asked if the risk of actually contracting listeria while eating the odd bit of soft cheese/deli meat/pre-prepared sandwich in the U.K. was actually a real concern or if the risk was so completely low it wasn’t really something to worry about. She wasn’t asking whether if actual listeria is bad. It obviously is. IF you’re unlucky enough to get it.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

No, YOU have missed the point. OP asked if the risk of actually contracting listeria while eating the odd bit of soft cheese/deli meat/pre-prepared sandwich in the U.K. was actually a real concern or if the risk was so completely low it wasn’t really something to worry about. She wasn’t asking whether if actual listeria is bad. It obviously is. IF you’re unlucky enough to get it.

No, I haven't. I am trying to show her what can happen. It can be horrific and it isn't worth the risk.

If the NHS believes there is a risk then I would trust them. Why would anyone think they know better?

I think the point is that the NHS find it easiest to say ‘this is dangerous, don’t do it at all’ than actually give proper statistical info- however, intelligent women capable of critical thought are absolutely entitled to assess their own risks to certain things and crunch their own numbers to make a decision.

In answer to your thread title - yes, listeria really is that dangerous. A third of outcomes in pregnancy result in either miscarriage or stillbirth. It is also incredibly rare - I had listeria when I was pregnant and was the first person in my major London hospital to have it in 5 years. It is so rare, they don't even test for it routinely. I also do not know where I got it - I followed all the usual rules. I could also be sure of what I'd eaten as I also had GD and had kept a food diary (I was environmental health's best friend!).

I was very ill for around a week with a very high temperature but this happened to coincide with the swine flu epidemic so my GP tested me for a urine infection, ruled that out and assumed it was swine flu. With echoes of the current covid situation, I wasn't seen at any point until I had a massive bleed, and was sent into A&E where I went into premature labour.

DD and I were very lucky - we both recovered and it hasn't affected either of us long term. I (randomly) met another Mum who also went into premature labour with listeria - her DD also survived, but suffered life long disabilities.

As I said, I also had GD so I do understand the restrictions you are under. However, I wouldn't wish what I went through on anyone.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

I think the point is that the NHS find it easiest to say ‘this is dangerous, don’t do it at all’ than actually give proper statistical info- however, intelligent women capable of critical thought are absolutely entitled to assess their own risks to certain things and crunch their own numbers to make a decision.

And I am allowing her to do so by supplying the literature.

She also needs to reliase the number in UK are so low because majority of women will actually avoid these foods during pregnancy.

Personally - and this is from my own experience - I avoid mr whippy like the plague anyway. My Nan was admitted to hospital and incredibly unwell after one, that was because in short the machine was dirty and hadn't been cleaned. And there's not really any way of checking that
McFlurrys are ok though and normal ice cream so lots of choice!

@Loki01 wow, thanks for ‘allowing’ theOP and others to make informed choices by supplying a paper!

[quote SmidgenofaPigeon]@Loki01 wow, thanks for ‘allowing’ theOP and others to make informed choices by supplying a paper![/quote]
Haven't noticed you supplying any information...

You are just being petty. Having information is what allows you make an informed decision. Stop being ridiculous.

@Loki01- we don’t agree. However, that doesn’t make me ‘ridiculous’.

[quote SmidgenofaPigeon]@Loki01- we don’t agree. However, that doesn’t make me ‘ridiculous’.[/quote]
No, what makes you ridiculous was your comment where you are thanking me for allowing her to make a desicion.

Her stats are completely flawed, dont make any sense as she cannot know what the real stats would be if everyone would just stop following the advice.

This article is pretty interesting.
Report from The Food standards Agency from 2012.

A microbiological survey of pre-packed ready-to-eat sliced meats at retail in UK small to medium sized enterprises (SME’S).

Seems just under 4% of pre-packed ready to eat meals contained Listeria.

I can absolutely relate @Pongo101. I am one of many friends who is currently pregnant. I am eating what I want, drinking what I want but with a moderation of knowing I am pregnant. So what does that mean? It means knowing having some paté at a wedding when I won’t have had any before or after is fine, it means drinking a glass of wine on special occasions (wedding/anniversary) is also fine because the overall amount being drunk has drastically been reduced, it means eating brie as part of a cheeseboard without worrying that I am going to get ill with listeria (seeing as the millions of times I’ve eaten it previously haven’t been an issue), it means having a bath as hot as I would normally, it means exercising as normal. It means mostly that I am content to continue my life having made alterations to account for being pregnant, which includes reducing events to almost nonexistent where it is high likelihood high risk of poor outcomes, but where it is low likelylihood using my own risk assessment to decide what i want to do..

If you can do anything to reduce the risk of your precious baby being stillborn please do.
No matter how small the risk my seem.

Statistics do reflect the actual reality. A piece of high risk cheese isn't worth it, lots of tasty and safer alternatives. It's not about woman having no choice in what they eat during pregnancy it's doing as much as possible to have a healthy baby in your arms at the end of your pregnancy.
Please don't make this into undermining women's decision making.

@Loki01 presumably cooking (or indeed freezing) then kills off most if not all of the listeria bacteria in ready meals? So even if that figure is correct, that doesn’t mean 4% of all ready meals are going to make you ill.

I don’t think it’s individuals fault these things get spouted.

Who actually bothers to look into it? Hardly anyone by the sounds of it.

I generally live my life much like before, except listening to my body a lot more.

I asked for a specific shampoo and conditioner super swanky that I’d never buy myself as a treat for my birthday and the person didn’t buy it because of the chemicals 😬sulphites I think?

I told my dad I still have a morning coffee and he started telling me not to worry because people have healthy babies whilst addicted to heroin 👀?!?!?! Coffee.. heroin.. same thing right?

I couldn’t go to the works bbq because we were going away but an old guy said ‘ no point you coming, can’t drink anyway’ I said ‘I’d have half a shandy’ he said ‘no you can’t do that to the baby, I’d judge you if you did that’.

Listeria, again, like I’ve never met anyone who’s ever had listeria but I’d met many who have been involved and one sadly died in a car accident but I drive as part of my job and nobody even asks me about to. But no.. step away from the purse when that ice cream van comes round.

I’ve never rinsed fruit or veg in my life, I’m not starting now.

Cats is another thing that losses me right off, I don’t have one but they come shitting in my garden so inevitably I have to clean up cat shit which has terrible outcomes if you get toxoplasmosis whilst pregnant. So a woman is there chilling with her cats and avoiding salami like it’s the devil.

[quote SmidgenofaPigeon]@Loki01 presumably cooking (or indeed freezing) then kills off most if not all of the listeria bacteria in ready meals? So even if that figure is correct, that doesn’t mean 4% of all ready meals are going to make you ill.[/quote]
Cooking does. I am not sure about freezing tbh, we do freeze bacteria and it's good to grow after. Listeria is known to grow at 4 degrees for example.
I think the danger is that because it's ready to eat, you will buy it and eat it.

If the NHS believes there is a risk then I would trust them. Why would anyone think they know better?

It’s funny though, because CMV is more than 30 times as common as listeria or toxoplasmosis (2-3 babies born with harm from CMV every day) and the NHS doesn’t really provide much information about that at all, despite the fact there are simple steps you can take to reduce the risk. I mean there’s a page about it on the NHS website but nothing like the level of emphasis there is on the ‘food rules’. I think there are charities campaigning to change that, but my point is that NHS guidance isn’t necessarily proportionate to the risk in question.

@MissChanandlerBong22 group b strep infections are also rising and that isn't even included in routine tests. Nhs website says 1 in 5 women carry the infection.

I actually paid for the toxoplasmosis and strep tests during my last pregnancy and have decided I will do this time around too.

@Pongo101

Yes! I paid for CMV testing too.

The advice from the NHS doesn’t reflect absolute risk, it reflects a complex cost benefit analysis. It’s easy and cheap as chips to tell women not to eat Brie for 9 months, so it’s worth doing it even if the risk is very low. But implementing screening programmes for far more common infections like CMV and Group B Strep - like they do in other countries - would be expensive, difficult and would raise questions about cost effectiveness.

And that’s why I think it’s important that women look at the data and assess it themselves. The NHS issues guidance at a population level with heavy budget constraints in mind.

@MissChanandlerBong22

If the NHS believes there is a risk then I would trust them. Why would anyone think they know better?

It’s funny though, because CMV is more than 30 times as common as listeria or toxoplasmosis (2-3 babies born with harm from CMV every day) and the NHS doesn’t really provide much information about that at all, despite the fact there are simple steps you can take to reduce the risk. I mean there’s a page about it on the NHS website but nothing like the level of emphasis there is on the ‘food rules’. I think there are charities campaigning to change that, but my point is that NHS guidance isn’t necessarily proportionate to the risk in question.

Oh absolutely! NHS is by no means perfect. The way I look at it if they bother (and as you say, they dont with some other stuff) then I wouldnt ignore the risks.

I think overall, it is important to be aware of certain things we can do to prevent negative outcomes, but to keep it in perspective.

so yes, certain food is a higher risk for contracting listeria/toxoplasmosis but at the same time if you've accidentally eaten one of the things on the avoid list to not go into an absolute melt down. I am guilty of it myself, after having a soft ice cream from a stand on my local sea front recently and my BIL asked if i was allowed to eat it. btw, soft ice cream isnt actually on the nhs website to avoid.

but I still spent over an hour googling soft ice cream risks etc. working myself up.