Is listeria really that dangerous?

[Pongo101]

I'm pregnant and now things have opened up again I'm receiving ALL the opinions about all the things pregnant women can/cannot eat and do in general.

I already have a strict diet due to GD so I am trying to broaden my horizons on diet so I'm still able to enjoy food.

I looked into some stats. In the UK in 2018, there were just 156 cases of listeria and 32 deaths. In comparison, same year there were 160597 people injured in car accidents and 1784 car accident deaths.

Nobody even considers that getting in your car every day poses a risk to you and your unborn baby but eat a bit of Brie and you are the most selfish mother ever. Even though listeria can also be found on unwashed fruits and vegetables yet if you order a salad in a restaurant nobody blinks an eye - you likely have no idea about the kitchen standards and whether it was really washed properly though.

Are the risks blown out of proportion? I currently can't eat much bread, potatoes, rice, wraps, most junk food (likely a good thing), a glass of milk, you get the picture because they spike my sugar levels. But I could eat a nice slab of Brie with some cherry tomatoes and sugars would be fine and I would be so happy.

Last pregnancy I went in the sauna and jacuzzi every evening after my swim, right up until I popped. I got so many dirty looks but it felt so good I just didn't care in the end and my doctor said it's ok just stop if you don't feel well and listen to your body.

I just wish there was real information about the danger so you could weigh it up properly and make a decision rather than everyone saying "don't do it". I know it's just 9 months but GD makes it a very long 9 months and nobody would say for example, im going to avoid cars for 9 months.

Obviously if someone can get back to me with more reliable info than me just comparing stats of things that are dangerous I won't eat the cheese but so far I'm just thinking Meh there are so many things we could die from, I could catch Covid tomorrow or be hit by a bus.

I think the car v Brie eating risk you present is a bit misleading. It’s all about managing risk as there are risks we necessarily have to take and risks we can easily avoid. Driving is the one of the riskiest things we all do on a daily basis but for lots of people it’s not easy or possible to continue daily life without it. However, it’s fairly easy to continue life without eating Brie.

But it’s up to each I individual to manage their own risk and own their decisions. It is intensely annoying to be challenged about your decisions as a grown adult. I got an enormous amount of shit for riding my bike and running when pregnant.

I also recommend the book Expecting Better by Emily Oster. She goes through the studies and evidence, and provides the information so you can make up your own mind about the acceptable level of risk.

I had a 99 ice cream last week and everything is fine.

I would also be much more cautious in countries where food standards are not so high as they are in the UK.

I bought Expecting Better recently (second pregnancy!) and my copy from Amazon has been updated with U.K. specific stats and guidance, which I really appreciated. She even discusses how some of the NHS advice is way over the top or based on very outdated information.

I totally agree that the anti-listeria advice focuses too much on deli items like cured meats and cheese when things like salad can actually be worse. It’s infuriating because I don’t even think I could enjoy Brie now, knowing I’m not “supposed” to be eating it!

Different countries recommend avoiding different things though which makes me a bit
I went to a hen do with pregnant women from UK, France and Spain and they’d all been told to eat / avoid different things and then one proceeded to start competitively avoiding everything off all the lists… so I’d use your own judgement and if you’re having it just make sure it’s stored and prepared safely.

Just ignoring all the people who don't get the train of thought behind the thread and want to thank everyone who have pointed me towards the Emily Oster book and other reliable sources.

Things pregnant women deserve:

• clear advice and risk assessment based on data
• thorough and ongoing research into pregnancy related conditions
• appropriate resources available to make informed decisions

Things pregnant women don't deserve:

• wishy washy, unclear information
• strangers dishing out unwanted advice on the street
• to be called selfish for their decisions
• unnecessary restrictions due to lack of information
• to be confused about what is and isn't safe

So thank you to everyone who directed me to that resource

Despite hearing two accounts of real tragedy it sounds like you're still quite keen to argue against the advice from the NHS.

But I can find you accounts of real tragedy involving virtually anything. Not least giving birth.

OP isn’t a listeria-denier. She isn’t saying it doesn’t exist, or that it doesn’t cause tragedy. She’s asking how often that happens and what the real risks are.

Think using words like selfish are a bit Ott since I am just questioning the information. In what world are we selfish just for a bit of critical thinking?

You said you went in the jacuzzi etc last pregnancy so it's not just critical thinking.

Ultimately it's up to you what you do but it is an emotive subject for people. My first baby was stillborn at 41 weeks after I did everything right and even though that shows something can go wrong for any of us it angers me when people are blasé about pregnancy as some of us don't get to keep our babies. People thinking it's not going to happen to them until it does . What happened to us was terrible but I can't imagine how I'd have felt if I then learned it was because I couldn't give up rare steak or mouldy cheese.

@BunnytheFriendlyDragon I asked my doctor if I could go in the sauna and jacuzzi and she said go for it.

I'm sorry that you lost a baby. That's really tragic.

It has nothing to do with whether I went in the sauna.

We should be able to have a neutral discussion about what is safe in pregnancy without it being connected to emotional blackmail.

Agree @Pongo101.

Really really awful for you @BunnytheFriendlyDragon and I’m sure you wouldn’t wish the same on anyone- however other people’s decision making in their own pregnancies have no bearing on what happened to you.

I think you misunderstood and of course you do.

I'm bit saying what you do affects me or anyone else's pregnancies. I'm saying I always put my baby first when I was pregnant in terms of food and safety and I would consider it selfish not to. For those of us who have lost a baby it is upsetting when others don't seem to be careful if table things for granted eg smoking or drinking or unable to give up rare steak and that should be understandable BUT I followed the nhs guidance in my first pregnancy before my loss as that's what I think is the right thing to do.

It's a bit shit to accuse me of emotional blackmail for sharing my experience when I could have just called you a selfish person and left it at that.

@MissChanandlerBong22

Despite hearing two accounts of real tragedy it sounds like you're still quite keen to argue against the advice from the NHS.

But I can find you accounts of real tragedy involving virtually anything. Not least giving birth.

OP isn’t a listeria-denier. She isn’t saying it doesn’t exist, or that it doesn’t cause tragedy. She’s asking how often that happens and what the real risks are.

Yes of course, and it's a fair point if it wasn't for the fact that, essentially, there are things that can be done to eliminate this risk. Once you know that, and the alternative is potential foetal death (however unlikely), why would you continue to debate the merits of eating uncooked soft cheese?

Citing choosing whether to get pregnant... yes that is a risk, but here it seems to me the choices are: low risk of maternal or foetal death, or certainty of having to choose to not have children/use a surrogate and IVF.

When the disparity between the impact of the decision is as big as 'low risk dead baby', and 'I get to eat certain cheeses a bit earlier', why would you continue to give a shit about informed choice?

I think listeria is very dangerous in pregnancy, but its also very rare (in pregnancy or otherwise) so overall the risk is very small.
I think many pregnant women aren't that well informed about what food are higher risk. I ate tons of parma ham and chorizo in the first trimester as I just craved salty stuff - didn't realise it was on the "not recommended" list. Conversely I know women who avoided fish when pregnant even though its not on the list 🤷‍♀️

Also I've never heard of ice cream being a risk and probably ate that during pregnancy without even thinking about it

[quote Pongo101]@Savoretti but would you feel the same if you were in a car accident? Would you be like "why oh why did I take the risk?" [/quote]
Yes, people fo consider the risks of cats, quite carefully. Why wouldn’t they

But at the end of the day, almost everyone involved in car accidents survives, including unborn babies, whereas around a fifth of people who get listeria die, which is much higher in unborn babies.

And use of cars is necessary within many people’s lifestyle, whereas eating Brie most certainly is not

And of all the sacrifices parents make for their children, avoiding Brie for 9 months has to be the single tiniest and least consequential.

And anyone who has a serious problem with that very probably hasn’t really thought through what parenthood means

I don't understand this thread. It's really easy to get pasturised brie.
Salami, chorizo, Parma ham and rare steak can all be eaten if you freeze them for three days beforehand to kill the bacteria. Personally I worried about salad as much as cheese. I read the Emily Oster book and did my own research. Hot tubs are less risky after 12 weeks and the risk is raising your temperature over a certain amount for a particular length of time. This is easily monitored and avoided.

It's not about there is no risk or it will kill your baby.

The NHS guidance is based on real risks....but they can be mitigated.

I think the issue of comparing it to a car is that if a car crash kills you, whether you’re pregnant or not does not increase the likelihood of that happening. However with listeria for non pregnant people it’s generally not that harmful, even for pregnant women it’s technically not harmful, it’s only harmful for the baby,
I have GD too so I understand the restrictiveness and the likelihood that our babies will come out looking like cheese the amount we eat, however could you not just cook it and have it melted? That way you can enjoy it and not have it at the back of your head as to whether you have contracted listeria

I used to work in a microbiology food testing laboratory and it absolutely is dangerous. Even if not for you, for the baby. It's only 9 months ffs, why are you even having a baby if you don't give a shit.

When I was at uni I used to do some voluntary work in primary schools (teacher training readiness) and one of the themes of the programme was Needs and Wants.
I Need to travel to work in order to afford to live.
I Want to eat Brie because it's nice and my diet is being restricted temporarily.

The NHS guidance, to me, distinguishes between 'ignoring' the risks of needs (because as others other have said, you'd not do anything at all for nine months) and explaining the risks of wants, because it's not unreasonable for the vast majority of people to pause their desire for wants for less than a year.

@DowntownFrown

Different countries recommend avoiding different things though which makes me a bit I went to a hen do with pregnant women from UK, France and Spain and they’d all been told to eat / avoid different things and then one proceeded to start competitively avoiding everything off all the lists… so I’d use your own judgement and if you’re having it just make sure it’s stored and prepared safely.

I became a lot more sceptical about the advice when I heard the advice from France and Canada.

I was told to avoid peanuts, my Canadian friend was told an extra peanut butter sandwich a day would provide the extra protein and calories she needed. She celebrated the news with Camembert and olives, didn’t touch a drip of wine. I celebrated with a glass of cava. My American friend living in France asked her consultant if she needed to avoid cheese and wine and was told “why? You’re not sick, you’re pregnant”

Oh, and my consultant was Aussie, he said it’s all OTT, and as far as he was concerned blue cheese is penicillin and red wine’s good for your heart so having some each week is fine.

Im hesitant to reply because people are either not reading the thread or only read what they want to read.

Regarding the car arguments, for me it isn't a need. I haven't been in a car in over a year. Used public transport a handful of times. I have everything I need in walking distance. I understand that's not the case for everyone and for some it is a need, but for me it really isn't.

And if I gave the full list of things I have given up due to GD it you would see the things I am willing to give up. I can't eat toast for breakfast. I can't eat cereal. No crumpets or croissants. I can eat avocado, cheese, and a scrambled egg. Every meal comes down to the same choice: which vegetables, which protein, which fat. Carbs are heavily rationed. After weeks of this I'm just looking for a more interesting source of fat. Can't even have milk in a decaf coffee.

I'm a fantastic mother and honestly can't be arsed to argue otherwise anymore. Even a mother who doesn't have GD, if she decides to have a mr whippy, she can still be a great mum. Great mums also think critically, outside of the box, and look for extra reading material if they are unsure of their decisions.

I'm not sure how great it is to be a judgemental mum and a keyboard warrior, but sure some of you have redeeming qualities and I won't take your comments personally.

The funny thing is I checked the brie and it is made with pasteurized milk so thank you to the post that drew my attention to that!!

@Pongo101

I'm pregnant and now things have opened up again I'm receiving ALL the opinions about all the things pregnant women can/cannot eat and do in general.

I already have a strict diet due to GD so I am trying to broaden my horizons on diet so I'm still able to enjoy food.

I looked into some stats. In the UK in 2018, there were just 156 cases of listeria and 32 deaths. In comparison, same year there were 160597 people injured in car accidents and 1784 car accident deaths.

Nobody even considers that getting in your car every day poses a risk to you and your unborn baby but eat a bit of Brie and you are the most selfish mother ever. Even though listeria can also be found on unwashed fruits and vegetables yet if you order a salad in a restaurant nobody blinks an eye - you likely have no idea about the kitchen standards and whether it was really washed properly though.

Are the risks blown out of proportion? I currently can't eat much bread, potatoes, rice, wraps, most junk food (likely a good thing), a glass of milk, you get the picture because they spike my sugar levels. But I could eat a nice slab of Brie with some cherry tomatoes and sugars would be fine and I would be so happy.

Last pregnancy I went in the sauna and jacuzzi every evening after my swim, right up until I popped. I got so many dirty looks but it felt so good I just didn't care in the end and my doctor said it's ok just stop if you don't feel well and listen to your body.

I just wish there was real information about the danger so you could weigh it up properly and make a decision rather than everyone saying "don't do it". I know it's just 9 months but GD makes it a very long 9 months and nobody would say for example, im going to avoid cars for 9 months.

Obviously if someone can get back to me with more reliable info than me just comparing stats of things that are dangerous I won't eat the cheese but so far I'm just thinking Meh there are so many things we could die from, I could catch Covid tomorrow or be hit by a bus.

I completely agree with you and I made my own risk assessment with both pregnancies - I ate McFlurry’s, had salami/prosciutto and drank about 3 glasses of wine in total. No-one seemed to care about the risks of me taking the bus or going in the car but they all had opinions on how much caffeine I should drink and whether I was “allowed” goat’s cheese. You do you and ignore all the naysayers. You don’t stop being your own person just because you’re incubating someone else.

Oh but if certain posters on this thread had their way we’d all be condemned to the crap mum bin and never should have procreated in the first place because we clearly have no concept of what motherhood means 🙄🙄

Why not soft ice cream? Oh I've been dreadful this pregnancy. I accidentally had a brie and bacon panini at a cafe today because I completely forgot until reading this thread! It was melted so hopefully OK.