Is listeria really that dangerous?

[Pongo101]

I'm pregnant and now things have opened up again I'm receiving ALL the opinions about all the things pregnant women can/cannot eat and do in general.

I already have a strict diet due to GD so I am trying to broaden my horizons on diet so I'm still able to enjoy food.

I looked into some stats. In the UK in 2018, there were just 156 cases of listeria and 32 deaths. In comparison, same year there were 160597 people injured in car accidents and 1784 car accident deaths.

Nobody even considers that getting in your car every day poses a risk to you and your unborn baby but eat a bit of Brie and you are the most selfish mother ever. Even though listeria can also be found on unwashed fruits and vegetables yet if you order a salad in a restaurant nobody blinks an eye - you likely have no idea about the kitchen standards and whether it was really washed properly though.

Are the risks blown out of proportion? I currently can't eat much bread, potatoes, rice, wraps, most junk food (likely a good thing), a glass of milk, you get the picture because they spike my sugar levels. But I could eat a nice slab of Brie with some cherry tomatoes and sugars would be fine and I would be so happy.

Last pregnancy I went in the sauna and jacuzzi every evening after my swim, right up until I popped. I got so many dirty looks but it felt so good I just didn't care in the end and my doctor said it's ok just stop if you don't feel well and listen to your body.

I just wish there was real information about the danger so you could weigh it up properly and make a decision rather than everyone saying "don't do it". I know it's just 9 months but GD makes it a very long 9 months and nobody would say for example, im going to avoid cars for 9 months.

Obviously if someone can get back to me with more reliable info than me just comparing stats of things that are dangerous I won't eat the cheese but so far I'm just thinking Meh there are so many things we could die from, I could catch Covid tomorrow or be hit by a bus.

I didn't even know that the advice was about protecting the baby. I just thought it was because feeling utterly shite is going to take on an extra level of bad if you are also pregnant. There really isn't much they advise avoiding in the UK, pretty much unpasteurised milk products, raw meat and pate. Can't stand pate, so that wasn't a hardship. With any of these things it is more weighing up the risks. A brie from sainsburys is likely to be safer than an unpasteurised one made by a friend from their own cow from a non-professional farm.

Makes me despair how women are so quick to throw out insults like ‘selfish’ to other pregnant women who happen to make different decisions to them. Even if you don’t agree you are free to crack on with your own decision making and me eating Brie or Mr Whippy has zero impact on the choices other women make. It’s so totally bitchy and unnecessary and I have no idea why posters think it’s ok.

I sort of agree but comparing a food choice to driving is a disingenuous argument. They are not comparable.

You do realise that if everyone decided driving a motorised vehicle was too much of a risk you wouldn't be able to eat brie or mr whippy at all? No food supply chain, no medicine, no nothing really.

@littleredberries I’m sorry your stomach didn’t agree with the soft cheeses and you had cramps from that.

They did not cause uterine contractions. Please do not spout scaremongering bullshit.

I had contractions and cramps any time I had these cheeses. That's all I can say.

I presume if you were genuinely worried you were in premature labour you would have gone to hospital. You had stomach cramps. Nothing to do with your uterus.

Due to the HG, I kept a strict food diary, so I'm certain of the causes.
It's too much of a coincidence.
Anyone can read what I've said and make up their own mind.

It’s a shame you didn’t seek medical attention for a professional to make up their mind isn’t it?

I was very, very worried. I had been to the hospital many times due to the hg and had experienced obstetric violence there. We live in a very rural location abroad and I had no way to get to the hospital easily on that particular day. So I was hesitant to call an ambulance and go back to an ob who had bullied me so many times. It was an afternoon of agony.
Luckily it all turned out ok.

Maybe there are low cases of listeria because people heed the warnings about it.

Totally agree with @Topofthepopicles about the NHS advice. It's safest for them to present the most cautious of guidance just so there can be no room for interpretation but I cannot STAND the idea that as a grown woman, I don't possess the ability to make my own decisions based on informed, scientific evidence. I wish there was more info readily available as well.

Which is why I ignored the NHS, read 'Expecting Better' by Emily Oster and am happily into a healthy 28 week pregnancy having zero regrets about a few glasses of wine and some sushi.

I've copied her 'off limits' list after her research. Raw milk cheese IS on there but she explains the risk levels earlier in the chapter.

Bottom line - you are in no way selfish and you have every right to ask questions.

I don’t see that there’s anything wrong with someone asking ‘what is the actual risk?’ and I think it’s ridiculous to throw words like ‘selfish’ around just because a woman tries to evaluate risk for herself.

@littleredberries I'm very sorry that you went through what sounds like a traumatic experience.

But unless a trained, medical professional has advised you that eating soft cheese was the cause of your contractions, please take your 'advice' elsewhere.

Fine. I'll ask mumsnet to take my story down. Hope that is appeasing. I think it's dangerous.

Op I 100% agree with you

Well listeria can cause brain damage so no not worth the risk

@littleredberriestoube what you’ve described is also in no way relates to the symptoms of listeria in the first place. You ate a particular food that didn’t agree with you. I’m sure it hasn’t been helpful to you to think that you put your baby in danger and it sure as shit isn’t helpful to try and make other women think they will put theirs in danger if they don’t heed your ridiculous assumptions.

When I was pregnant, I took the view of sticking to the NHS guidelines of food and drink as an easy one to stick to. I could live without a Mr Whippy ice cream from a van or an undercooked steak while pregnant.
But I live semi-rurally, so needed to the car to get places, including hospital appointments.
It was a choice I made. But I don't judge others for choosing differently to me

Thank you @loulamay you are on the exact same page as I am. It's not about not wanting to give something up per se - I will give up the things that are dangerous. It's about wanting to understand how dangerous they are and the reasoning behind the recommendation.

If shop bought salad is as dangerous for me as soft cheese then what's the point of giving up one without the other.

I know im not selfish. I won't have a bar of chocolate or a portion of pasta because I don't want my baby to suffer due to my GD. In fact, im actually interested in reading about what is and isn't dangerous I care about it that much.

I just get frustrated at the low-targeted nonsense drivel out there when it comes to pregnancy advice. Give me some real facts. Give me the analysis behind the data. Help me answer my questions. Come on women, we deserve better than this. We deserve to be informed beyond "don't do it"

I'm using the vehicle example but it could literally be anything that is harmful in every day life that we continue to do - without labeling people selfish. But pregnant women are fair game. I wouldn't approach a mother feeding her children a mr wippy and tell her off - even if those children were physically obese and it was clearly harming them. So why would someone do it to a pregnant woman?

We could just ban everything non-essential and harmful but we trust people to make their own judgments.

Why can't we give pregnant women more data and trust them too? Are we so irrational that we can't be trusted?

I'm definitely going to order that book!!!

Despite hearing two accounts of real tragedy it sounds like you're still quite keen to argue against the advice from the NHS.

I think the responses have given you a good idea of the reality behind these warnings - if you are happy to still choose the 'feeling-like-a-grown-up' route over 'potential dead baby' then go ahead.

Personally, I think the suggestion to bake the cheese is a good compromise 🙂

The problem with listeria is that if its gets into your body and you are pregnant, it will go straight for the placenta. It prefers that tissue and the placenta will then basically act as an incubator.
I am a researcher and I do make sure I avoid food with a risk of listeria.

There is a nice paper for you:

bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-8221-z

Do you want to research real data? Have a look.

Do you not rinse the salad? And fruit and veg? My midwife told me to start doing both of those things at my booking in appt.

McDonald’s said years ago that McFlurry machines are self cleaning and so lower risk now, and I don’t think anyone eats soft ice cream at the same rate as cheese…

But it’s your pregnancy, and you decide what you eat. They just advise. Some people will rationalise a small glass of wine every now and again, others would be horrified.

This sounds more about the people who are commenting on what you eat than the advice? My MIL ate out with us last Friday and was so worried about unwashed lettuce in my burger that I took it out to stop her stressing… but generally nobody has really commented. If you’re happy with the risk; ask people to stop giving you unwanted advice.

I’m sorry about the GD. I don’t have that, and escaped feeling sick, and I’d still basically sacrifice a limb for a Camembert and chorizo… I’m planning an epic post-baby meal!

That’s a paper from a study conducted in New Zealand, perhaps you’d be able to better back up your point with the equivalent from the U.K., with women who consumed U.K. or European food products?