The positive birth company don't believe that pregnancy and birth should be woman centered.

[JustcameoutGC]

Just thought you might like to know, in case you are deciding on where to go for education and support during your pregnancy

Good for you.
But invoking the sympathy trope doesn't really answer all the points being made. Just because some people have a more difficult journey doesn't mean we should rewrite a whole language around commonly understood themes.
Saying that I don't have any personal objection to genuinely inclusive language for both sexes.
I thought the point made in the screenshots actually gave the best reason for using language that didn't exclude or marginalise - because pregnancy and birth can be difficult and dangerous and delivering a baby without appropriate support is harmful.

Sorry ladies.. I don’t believe in pandering. I will not participate in my own erasure and be told I have to do something to validate gender dysphoria.

If you cannot accept that females give birth then that’s not my problem.

The day I pander to a man or a woman spouting this nonsense pigs will fly!

That’s the day Olympic swimmers instead of swimming will swim like an ax!

If you want to pander to this nonsense to make yourself feel better then do so. Just know it doesn’t make you a “better person”. It makes you a Serena joy! The kind of woman who cares more about a head pat from men then actually having self respect!

Good luck with that one. Hope those head pats and Scooby snacks the MRAs sorry.. trans rights activists hand out are worth it.

From what I understand only biological females can give birth BUT some of those biological females may identify as a man rather than woman. In which case technically not all births are woman-centred. It just seems like the PBC have put this across in a clumsy way

This just pisses me off.

I have over the last couple of years been a vociferous defender of trans inclusive feminism on the feminist boards, so I hope it's clear that I do not have anything against transgender people but I do not like the wording of this post at all. It's aggressive and patronising/condescending. And the problem is because so many people do bash trans people in the name of feminism, any criticism offered will just be brushed off by them as bigotry.

Argh that post is so annoying

They will never try to change men's language to be more inclusive. There is a reason for this. Any amount of critical thinking around the subject will show the inherent misogyny in this whole push for changing language which is to do with women.

'Pregnant human' couldn't be a better example of what we're talking about so thank you for that.

I'm glad that they are including transmen and other people who do not identify as women in their posts. The clarification posted by Mousetown is good. They use both terms.

@glasspaw

This thread is immensely disappointing. Casual bigotry aside, I would really urge the majority of you do just do some research around the MANY examples of non-female identifying humans that have gone on to become pregnant and have children. Their stories are heartbreaking. I can’t even imagine the kind of discrimination that some of these individuals faced throughout their pregnancy.

The whataboutism around products and services aimed at men doesn’t prove the point you think it does, rather highlights that we still have a long way to go as a society to break down these often damaging gender norms. The point is that these products should also be taking steps towards being more inclusive.

I for one feel extremely happy as a pregnant human to see inclusivity from companies in this space for my fellow pregnant humans.

I absolutely believe there are many non-female identifying people who have given birth. And I imagine their stories are difficult.

But their experiences shouldn’t take anything away from the millions of women who have experienced childbirth, many of those heartbreaking stories of their own.

Everyone deserves a seat at the table. Just ask the men to budge up a bit too instead of trying to nick our seats.

What utter bollocks. Anyone giving birth is a woman, that is clearly a biological fact. If you are giving birth while saying you are a trans man, then you are still a woman - that is how you are able to give birth (although I'm not sure how this fits in with the whole idea of 'living as a man'}.

@EdgeOfACoin

I am a woman, I gave birth. I also know someone who considers themselves non binary who has given birth. It takes nothing away from me to include them in the conversation.

I bet they're an adult human female. I bet they're not the sort of non-binary person that was 'assigned' male at birth.

Oh shush! what’s it got to do you and why do you care what a total stranger, who you know nothing about, identifies as? It doesn’t take much effort just to respect other people.

Birth needs to be woman centred. When it isn't, it risks women, and babies, dying. However they identify.

Oh shush!

This is pretty much what the argument for de-centring women amounts to.

@ApplePie86

ApplePie86 I started following them on Instagram after hearing how amazing they were. I had to unfollow them after seeing being all they advertise is minority people and their stories. Can't remember seeing a straight couple at all. All seemed to be very unique circumstances. Nothing against these people at all but given 90-95% of clients will surely be your average straight couple I found I couldn't really relate to any of their content. What does “advertising minority people” even mean

The fact you unfollowed them for using non heterosexual couples is just plain bigotry. You know lots of lesbian parents use this forum don’t you? There is space for everyone.

Mousetown

Not bigotry at all. I was clear when I said "all they advertise is...". I couldn't care less if they used a wide range of people which included what the majority of people are but they don't. In fact after a quick scroll through I couldn't see one of your average pregnant woman or couple at all. We have a morbidly obese woman, what appears to be almost all black or Asian people and various same sex people.

Would it have been so difficult to appeal to what the majority of people are? A straight white couple?

There is indeed space for everyone but they are actively excluding the MAJORITY.

I couldn't care less if they want to advertise gay/lesbian/whatever else but actually don't exclude what most people are and want to be recognized for.

How was it that from your first post I knew that you had an issue with the people being portrayed was their colour and not their gender identity?

Yes it is bigotry to take issue with the colour of the women they have on their feed.

why do you care what a total stranger, who you know nothing about, identifies as?

The key is 'identifies as', not 'is'.

They can identify absolutely anyway they want.

If you get pregnant and give birth, you are a woman. It is the female biological characteristics that you were born with that enable you to do so.

If you 'identify' as a woman, but you are biologically male, you cannot, not ever, give birth. If you give birth, your identity as anything other than female, has nothing to do with you giving birth.

It is both linguistically & intellectually wrong; and as PPs have said, is diminishing of women & their experiences.

I know there are women who identify as men, dress as men and are repulsed by their female bodies. I imagine getting pregnant, being pregnant, giving birth and breast-feeding would be hugely difficult for anyone who felt like that about their female organs and their function and it would be doubly difficult to manage the whole process. You'd have to really, really want that baby.

For those people, medical staff will need to be very sensitive and caring, but the actual process will not be any different from what the range of mothers experience. Every woman giving birth deserves the same level of care and sensitivity, but there are linguistic pitfalls around care for transmen.

The whole care package is totally woman-centred by definition, though, and changing that language risks alienating 99.999% of the clientele just make the 0.001% feel comfy. There are better ways to be inclusive

Oh shush! what’s it got to do you and why do you care what a total stranger, who you know nothing about, identifies as? It doesn’t take much effort just to respect other people.

It's biological reality. Was I wrong?

As for 'what it's got to do with me' - well, actually, I fail to understand how identifying as non-binary is a positive thing for women. Surely it just means that any adult human female who has not identified out of being a woman is 'binary'...and what is that supposed to mean, exactly? How are 'women' meant to think, act or feel, according to a non-binary person? I don't like the implications.

So yes, this stuff does have consequences for wider society, including me and my unborn child.

And I maintain my view that your non-binary friend was born female. Every single person reading this thread knows that.

In the Siobhan Miller book I have, there is a lot of talk about 'women-centred care'. Will the next edition refer to 'women and birthing people-centred care', I wonder.

I’m sure most reasonable people on here don’t mind or care how people identify and want people, however they identify to have appropriate support, however now our language is being policed and the word woman is increasingly being erased from important settings, women are rightly becoming upset and questioning it.

There’s no problem with a midwife etc. checking someone’s preference, but why the need to adjust language and comms for everyone? I’m guessing people know their own biological sex and will understand they are biologically a woman? So will receive appropriate medical treatment. However as someone else said ‘people with a cervix’ as an example, is causing issues for women when English is not a first language, and meaning important medical appointments aren’t being booked.

@Wearywithteens

If you are supposed to be ‘living as the opposite sex’ to prove your own gender identity - doesn’t giving birth give a huge fucking hint as to which gender you actually are? The cognitive dissonance is mind blowing.

Yes. The nonsense involved in rocking up to the maternity ward and insisting on being treated as a man (how would that even work?) is stunning.

I would like to believe that if they ever met a trans man who was going through pregnancy, they might come to the conclusion that that person was deserving of decent medical care that made them feel included and seen.

No one is suggesting that individuals should not have good care. However, and I don’t mind saying it, being a trans man and then happily getting pregnant and having a baby and then wanting to be treated like a man at the same time strikes many of us as the ultimate hypocrisy. It rather gives the lie to all the claims about being born in the wrong body and terribly dysphoric and so on, because you can’t really maintain the diction that you are essentially and for all intents and purposes a man, and really can’t bear anything that suggests you aren’t a man, because terrible dysphoria/bad feelings etc., while also being pregnant and so on.

Not to suggest that humans aren’t essentially all contradictory and a bit hypocritical: we all are. But to lots of us the whole “men give birth too” thing sounds like nothing more than wanting to do all the things you claim you aren’t, then making everyone else forcibly agree to pretend it’s not all a charade. If you’re a trans man giving birth, maybe you need to acknowledge you aren’t actually a man, you’re a biological woman - instead of making everyone else indulge a fantasy which looks increasingly detached from reality.

Fiction not diction!

As with other posters, the bit I have a real problem is, is this.

'birth is not a woman-centred event'

1. Their we use inclusive language 'explanation' is such obvious rubbish in this case that I can't believe people are buying it!

They could have said so many things e.g.

We strongly believe that when you're giving birth you should be centred at all times

Birth must be centred on the woman or person who is giving birth

Women and birthing people must be centred in childbirth

That sort of thing.

1. Women had to fight for years, and in some countries continue to fight. To put the woman at the centre. Respect her choices and her right to informed decisions. Instead of the medicalised we know better approach. The phrase women centred was used to push for this, and is now commonly used all over the place to let women know they will be respected rather than ignored/ told what to do/ have things done against their wishes.

For them to state that birth is NOT a woman centred experience is really really bad.

It's not additive in any way and actively undermines all that phase woman centred birth conveys.

I know what they were trying to say BUT the fact they wrote that and published it to the public shows that they can't have thought about what it conveyed at all.

So they certainly weren't thinking of women at all when they put pen to paper, even though they are the vast vast vast majority of those who their services are for.

I for one feel extremely happy as a pregnant human to see inclusivity from companies in this space for my fellow pregnant humans.

This literally reads like something out of the kind of dystopian novel people would have thought way too far-fetched twenty years ago. Have you been reprogrammed by the Stonewall inclusivity bot to regurgitate this kind of stuff?

Notice the insidious presence of “companies” here. (And earlier in your post, “goods and services”.) Could it be that really this is all about making sure we forget we’re not really “women”, just convenient faceless product vehicles for “companies” to exploit? “Pregnant product centres” - oops, sorry, “Pregnant humans?”

Childbirth is still a serious business.

In the UK women and babies can still have life changing injury, or die.

There have been recent reports of a hosp where their approach meant babies died that wouldn't have if the care had been appropriate.

Childbirth is not a thing to use to virtue signal about like this. It feels really off to state it's not a woman centred event, in their opinion.